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Draft Night Impressions that you can read this time
Drastic computer woes and a (partially related) bevy of lagging assignments sabotaged plans of duplicating last year's live blogging of the draft, and I think that's a good thing. I've got a really positive feeling about the direction of the Wolves in the past week or two, and, as with really negative feelings as well, wanted to let it linger at least overnight, parse the context and the exuberance. Some of these things are hunches, and thus a tad irrational; some are wishful thinking, no doubt, after the long, dysfunctional ride in the wilderness since the Western Conference Finals. I owe no particular allegiance to the Wolves--I love the NBA, and find my own frame of sports is more enjoyable if I let various teams and players charm and disgust me as the process unfolds. Put another way, if last year's Houston Rockets had played 41 regular season games at Target Center, I would have had a lot more fun watching and writing, but I could have said the same thing about the Hornets or even the Raptors two and three years ago, respectively, and both squads bored me to death last season.
As I've said before, however, I prefer honest optimism to scrupulous "objectivity," which is just a way to totally discount your gut feelings, something both my head and my gut think is stupid and silly.
Last night the Wolves drafted the person I considered to be the best player on the board, with a higher upside than Blake Griffin. I suspect the love/hate Rubio polarity has a lot to do with whether or not you watched the Gold Medal game of the Olympics as it unfolded last summer. When those who did discovered that the gangly kid patrolling point for Spain was 17, we knew it was the stuff of myth, such a pleasant sensation to watch that the temptation was great to overhype it and send out an endorphin alert for other hoops freaks.
Playing against the quickest, most-catlike perimeter and full-court defense that perhaps has ever been assembled, the teenaged, strength- inferior Rubio nobly compensated with enough poise, court vision, and intuitive elan to help keep his team in the game.
The Timberwolves new personnel guy put his ballclub in place to draft him by trading Mike Miller and Randy Foye. Yes, there was much luck involved--you expect Memphis and Sacramento to get it wrong, but the Thunder passing on Rubio was inexplicable. And yes, the Rubio phone call to the assembled media later that night was a public relations disaster that conjured up a dozen other star-crossed fiascos in Wolves' history. It probably had to do with him being a teenager, with English as his second language, and the ego (and financial) blow of falling to number five, coupled with the destination--none of the Olympians he performed against last summer had Timberwolves lineage, and it's hard to imagine Rubio, a student of the NBA, not sussing that the Wolves are in the low-rent district of desirability in 2009. It's very very cold, the owner can't give away tickets, and a Top 40 all-time talent advanced past the first round once in his dozen years here, then led the greatest W-L turnaround in NBA history and bagged a ring the year he left.
Whatever the reasons, Rubio was bummed--the perfect word for the juvenile ennui that poured through the phone speaker despite his half-hearted initial efforts to put on a happy face. It made you think Rubio might not ever want to come here; that this could be another way to mock the Wolves in years to come. And it might still turn out that way.
But give me that elated frisson--a precious commodity around these parts, sportswise--when the Kings went for Evans and you didn't even have to wonder if the Wolves would pounce on Rubio. For reasons of strength, comportment, an unnaturally quick scale to his ceiling, Rubio might not work out--stranger things have happened. But David Kahn and the Wolves put a loud dent in the scornful regard apportioned to the Wolves franchise by hoops fans across the country. They landed Rubio.
And give me that catastrophic frisson hanging in the air during the last few minutes of Rubio's phone call. Because speaking as a basketball fan as well as a journalist, I'd rather get jerked around by circumstance than bored by circumstance.
Worst case scenario, the Wolves have a tremendous bargaining chip to play with the Knicks or the Lakers or the Heat. Less worse case scenario, and the one that looked most likely after listening to Rubio, reading what his Dad said to a reporter, and hearing Kahn last night, is that Rubio returns to Spain to hone his game under the supervision and tutelage of the Wolves organization, begins paying more attention to what Minnesota has to offer, and arrives in a year, perhaps two--he'll turn 20 two weeks before the 2010-11 season--with a more cohesive and purposefully assembled roster to buttress his talents.
Kahn's reaction to Rubio's ambivilance was very revealing. He had extensive words of praise for Rubio's agent--a shameless and not unintelligent brown-nosing--commented on Rubio's youth, said his franchise was fully in the "youth development business" and flatly stated that if any team "could afford to be patient, it's us."
Translation: Kahn really does think this roster needs to be taken down to the studs; really does envision this taking multiple drafts and free agencies. It's an attitude that must infuriate the McHale stalwarts who heard their man quickening in his enthusiasm of the roster he had 2/3 constructed over the previous two years, backed up for a lucky but still solidly performed month of January.
I don't know if Kahn is sincere in his statements that he fully intends to play Rubio and sixth pick Jonny Flynn together in the
backcourt, but it was the one awkward stance in an otherwise commendable performance, likening the young Minnesota pair to duos like Zeke and Dumars, DJ and Ainge, and Jordan and Paxton--not because the talent gap is obviously so wide at the moment, which he freely acknowledged, but because there is a comparatively brawny defensive stud (Dumars, DJ and Jordan) in every one of the latter groups. Flynn is less than six feet in socks and Rubio will never be a lockdown defender. This is significant, because the reason you play two point guards or two off-guards who can flip roles is because one of them is so capable at handling powerhouse two-guards at the other end of the court. One of the big knocks on Randy Foye is that he's too short to handle players 6-6 and up, and there are more than a few.
Rubio and Flynn in the same backcourt left me with a familiar disconnect--my response to Kevin McHale last year, saying Jefferson and Love could be a very complementary front court. And it's true, when Al is being doubled hard and Love is thus owning the weakside glass, they are a formidable pair--except for that defensive thing. I can see Rubio and Flynn setting each other up in similar fashion, and the other three guys to boot, but out on the perimeter or getting posted up on defense, they will suffer as Jefferson/Love suffers. But to continue the kool-aid drinking tenor of this post, I don't mind the pick of Flynn at 6. In my limited knowledge of the college game, I preferred Stephon Curry, but the redundancy objections to Flynn seem way premature. The Wolves have lacked for even mediocre play at the point ever since Sam Cassell took his loud mouth and aching back out of town, and now we're supposed to think two--at one of the two marquee roles on the court--is too many?
There are a fistful of reasons Flynn at 6 makes sense. First, all the internal scuttlebutt had the Wolves braintrust utterly in love with his game--some said he was their top "realistic choice" (meaning not Griffin, Rubio or Evans) on the board. When you are just breaking camp on a long long rebuilding slog, you draft the best player available, regardless. Second, whether intended for this role or not (I suspect he wasn't), Flynn is good Rubio leverage. Rubio and his dad and his agent can't bum rush the pressure on the Wolves to utilize his value in a deal, on the pretext that they need to find a quality replacement at the point to groom--they've got Flynn to man the point, either on the guy with the head start while Rubio is in Spain or as mutual
competitors and pressure valves. Given their youth and level of physical refinement, it might do both good to share the backcourt for 15 minutes and each command the point for another 15 apiece.
Then there is the "character" aspect to Flynn--I can't remember a more favorable first impression by a Wolves' rookie since I started covering the team in 1991. He was the perfect mixture of humble and proud (saying he could learn a lot from Rubio but in a tone of voice that implied that the reverse was also true), naturally well-spoken without seeming too eager to please, and a guy without guile who assumes he can let his play do the real talkin'. I've seen him play maybe twice, along with a dozen or so highlights , so the knowledge base on him is dim for me. But I'm rooting for the guy.
"Best player available," should be the mantra of next year's draft as well. Free agency is where you can most easily mortar your foundation, and it would do the Wolves good to get a solid veteran who is talented enough to play double-digit minutes, preferably at the 2, 3 or 5. But I appreciated the way Kahn kept emphasizing that last night was just stage one in a five stage process, and that the team was going be very young and frequently exposed next season. The goal here isn't to win 40 games, or even 30 games, necessarily; it is to demonstrate a plan and a cohesive clue. In the record books, the Wolves and the Thunder had pretty much the same season last year, but whose fans have more legitimate cause for excitement. That view of a compelling horizon-- even if in the distance--has to be the main goal this year, and it absolutely can't be a mirage.
Thus far, the remolded Wolves brass is earning the trust that they know what they're doing. No question they've had enormous luck: Harden/Flynn just doesn't have the same cache. But, as Kahn promised, they already put everything on hold to sweat the little details of the draft. By most all accounts, and from what little I saw of him, Wayne Ellington is a perfect fit on the roster: A proven winner and prolific scorer out of the small forward slot. A team less confident of its draft-day scholarship might have reached a little and tabbed Ellington at 18. Instead, the Wolves leveraged the Ty Lawson pick for another first-rounder next year courtesy of the Nuggets, and Ellington was still around at 28 when it was their turn once more. That and Kahn's consistent, straightforward denial of parting with either both #5 and #6 or Kevin Love and one of those high picks in order to move up to #2 or #3 and guaranteed Rubio (clearly their top priority if available), demonstrates diligence and discipline. And it whets the appetite for the rebuilding stages to come.
80 Reader Comments
Is there any chance that Jeff, Love, Rubio, and Flynn all survive the next two stages of Kahn?
I's been 10 years since we've had such a likeable set of players -- Brandon, KG, Malik, Bobby Jack, Mitchell -- but if we're ever going to compete (which means play defense) aren't two of these guys as good as gone?
Best Player Available!
We have often heard that a team that is rebuilding must take the best player available. So the T-wolves did this and they get critized for it!?
I have to admit that heard that they had drafted Flynn, I was stunned. But, the more that I have thought about it, the more I like it. Of course, we can use two high-quality point guards.
By the way, what happens to Telfair? I bet he had a lousy night.
Good stuff Britt.
At some point, it wouldn't be surprising to see at least 1 or more of these 4 moved. But I do think a good move is to maximize those assets. Pick the best players and show what they can do, then trade them when their value is high. Young players who can produce are very valuable in the NBA, and young guys who can't produce have much more value than old guys who can't. They can fill in other spots temporarily and put these guys in the best position to succeed.
This draft has me cautiously optimistic. There are definitely question marks, but judgment for those can be reserved when more is figured out. They did a good job of keeping all of these picks in play through picking Euros and trading picks for future picks that could be as high or higher than the ones they currently have. The players selected were the guys they wanted, so now they have to prove their worth.
Britt --
I'm surely not ready to put Dingus Kahn on some type of hype-laden ceremonial platform, but even for a "McHale stalwart" there was little doubt that the team needed to be rejiggered to its foundations.
In fact, an opposing (albeit unpopular) view is that Dingus has been the benefactor of the chips that McHale laid at his feet. The paring down of salaries so as to jockey for the 2010 FA derby was not a Dingus invention. The 3 FR 2009 draft choices was not by Dingus design.
As an anybody but McHale as GM versus McHale, anybody wins hands down. But give the devil his due.
Now, on to the draft results. This was an extremely good draft for the Wolves in 2011. Yet the overriding question remains will the franchise stay viable in the intervening seasons?
Dingus readily admits, as he should, that the coming season and next are rebuilding years. Nothing unique from the 'help is on the way' Taylor Plan of old.
Flynn is flat out nasty and will throw the rock down your throat at the rim. Throw in the leadership quality, that the past Wolves team lacked, and you have a complete package. Heart and BB-IQ far eclipse any vertical size issues with him.
I have it on good authority that Dingus as exclusive rights to Ricky's highlight videos, and will show them at game intro, halftime, and intermission for the next season or two.
But, so what? Ricky can go back to Spain, develop his mid-range and parameter shots and only get better. Rounding him out here, in an environment of infertility, or rounding him out at home should make no different. Rubio at 20 will be better than anyone else in the draft other than Griffin.
Personally, in my opinion, Ellington is the sleeper of the draft. Man can shoot.
18 and 20 year old guards who upgraded the starting back court from Bassy Telfair and Bobby Brown to the most exciting international player in the world and a highly rated college point. They also turned a 3rd point (who just happened to be the bpa at 18) in a point heavy draft into a similar pick in a 2010 draft that happens to be deep with wings and bigs. While I could have liked to see them go with Curry or DeRozan, this was a fantastic draft.
I do think they made an interesting decision with Flynn over Curry. I have always liked Curry's game. I wanted him to play point for this team. I thought he could be a dominant on-the-ball guard in the NBA for a long, long time. The quirk here is that part of his effectiveness is based on the amount of time he has the ball in his hands. At Davidson, he posted a 38% usage rate, which was #1 in the country. Flynn was way down at 310 with 25.2. When you can shoot that well, and you don't turn it over when you have the ball that amount of time, you are a fantastic player.
The problem is that if you take him off the ball and decrease his usage rate to 15-20, he becomes significantly less attractive; a 6'2" shooting guard with average defense. On the ball, he's a pick and roll monster who can run an offense and hit from anywhere. Off the ball, he's a mini Rip Hamilton. Taking Ricky Rubio immediately takes him off the ball. Think about Tony Parker playing next to Rubio. He wouldn't be Tony Parker. He needs the ball to be effective, both in scoring and facilitation.
Flynn, on the other hand, has encouraging signs as a guy who doesn't need the ball as much. First, he had a 25% usage rate. He played alongside of 2 other guards who had a decent amount of possessions (Harris and Devendorf). Check out this interesting bit from DX:
Flynn was a standout in two areas: his ability to get to the rim, and his one-on-one skills. Thankfully for him, those are two skills that the NBA values dearly. Clearly, his productivity is grounded in his first step. Flynn got to the rim 8.8 times per game, which accounted for a lot of his scoring, but his 1.24 PPP in unguarded catch and shoot situations and .94 PPP on pull up jumpers are both very respectable. His 4.3 possessions per game on isolations are amongst the best amongst big-conference players, and his 41% shooting on those plays isn’t awful. Couple those tools with his capacity to drive in both directions and his ability to draw fouls (16.1% SF), and it becomes hard not to think that Flynn could be, at the very least, a high quality backup if he improves his efficiency, especially once he masters the pick and roll (.84 PPP).
Again, both are points, but Curry was really, really ball dominant...and that's a good thing...just not with another point.
re: defensive stalwarts
You make a great observation, Britt, that 2 PGs/combos can work when one is a defensive monster. It immediately makes me think of Kahn's assessment that Flynn could develop into one of the top on the ball defenders in the entire NBA. Certainly the physical tools are there to do it, and my guess is that Flynn will be a significantly better defender in 2-3 years than he will be next year because that's just his make-up: dude wants to lead, and part of leadership is improving your own weaknesses for the betterment of the team.
I think there's significant promise in this draft. My question for those who know more about this than I do is what impact does rebounding (and to a lesser extent shot blocking and steals) have on defensive efficiency? If we were to keep our four big pieces (Al, Love, Rubio, and Flynn) long term, you'd have to think that our rebounding rates would be good, and our steal rates would be good. Is that enough to be average defensively? Couldn't you rely on a couple defensive subs, assuming all these guys develop as they can offensively, in late in the game situations (guys like Brewer and an as yet to be found rim protector)?
I thought that Charlotte via Denver pick is like top 12 protected next year. Are the Bobcats seriously going to the playoffs? (And if they do just miss, you KNOW they'll win in the lottery. That's just what happens with the 'Wolves.)
I'm not a college hoops follower, but given the fondness more than a few folks have for Lawson, it seems like they got way too little...
What an interesting draft. Truth be told, I've never been more excited about a Wolves draftee, but I'm also very worried that we'll never actually see him in a TWolves uni. The one lesson that I hope Kahn knows: you never get anywhere close to full value when you trade away a superstar. Look at every example in the past, and it's always the same:
Kobe for Vlade
Garnett for Jefferson
Shaq for Odom (and Butler, but he wasn't "Tough Juice" yet, and not until it was too late after the Kwame trade)
Barkley for Hornacek
I know there are others, but that's a quick list.
If we end up being forced to trade Rubio, it won't be a good thing--no matter how many draft picks or rotation players we get in the deal.
Re Rubio and Flynn:
At first, I was really upset. We presumably could've drafted Curry and traded him down to New York for something like the #8 (cheaper salary) and a future 1st Rounder--AND STILL DRAFTED FLYNN. I didn't quite understand that--maybe New York's interest in Curry wasn't as high as reported.
In any case, there is one good example of dual point guards on a great team. The Sacramento Kings of the 2001-02 Season had Bibby and Bobby, and were a key ingredient to one of the best teams in recent NBA memory. Any team that legitimately outplays the Kobe-Shaq Lakers--at their prime--has to be considered one of the 50 best teams of all time, I think. Adelman would alternate them, but also mix them, and it was really effective. It's hard to pay multiple point guards, but part of that would involve a revolving door 2-guard position, with guys like Ellington playing out a few years, and doing a Terry Ryan-like job of finding an adequate, young replacement.
Bottom line: if we can manage to keep Rubio, Flynn, Love, Jefferson for the long-haul, I think we can contend. We'll need help up front and at the wing (especially on defense--(Corey Brewer)) but that's a ton of potential in some high character guys. This should be fun to watch.
Yeah, Lazy, we likely won't have that pick next year (although at the bottom of the East playoff race anything is really possible). But this pick continues to get more and more valuable with each year (going down a few spots each year). The Bobcats are going to have a bad team for a lot of years- MJ's prescence all but guarantees that- so this could eventually be a great pick.
Ty Lawson was the 18th pick in a very bad draft. For him we were able to aquire and almost certainly higher pick in an almost certainly better draft. That's a good trade.
The protection goes down every year for that pick until it's unprotected. So it doesn't matter if the Bobcats aren't good enough next year. BTW, they had the #12 this year, so it's possible.
I don't get the idea that adding another point guard at #18 in a weak draft is a better move than adding, say, #13 in what's considered to be a stronger draft (particularly in areas of weakness for the team). If the Wolves really liked Lawson or thought that he was better than Flynn or Rubio (assuming he comes), they would've kept the pick and not taken one or both of those two guys. Lawson could be a good player, but generally speaking, the Wolves can expect to get a better player next year when they have the roster space. Plus, he was in that workout with Flynn, so it's not like they didn't have some idea of how the two matched up.
Andy G,
I share most of your sentiments about Rubio, with one exception: if Rubio has to be traded (I don't want him to be and don't think the Wolves need to be in any rush to do so if they are thinking about it), the players the team gets back can't be compared to their value versus Rubio's. They have to be compared to who the team's other options were at #6 (assuming they would've taken Flynn at #5 instead of Rubio).
For example, Kahn told Dan Patrick today that one team called offering any of their two guys except one particular player. I'd rather have Rubio, but as a last resort, getting a choice of players from another team for one guy would be a better pick than, say, Steph Curry.
Britt,
Thanks for you comments on this draft. I'll admit up front that I too subscribe to the "honest optimism" school of thought. I've never understood what one gets out of being forever pessimistic about our Wolves. True, it's been a tough 4 years but so far, Kahn seems to know what he wants and is not getting screwed in the process (think Marko).
It will be interesting to watch what Kahn does with Rubio. Will he just sit tight and let Rubio play out his contract in Spain? Will Flynn make Rubio a moot pick? Will we parlay him to another team like, say, NY? Will Ricky come around to playing in a cold weather city (like NY isn't f@*king cold?!)
What completely mystifies me what why Sacramento didn't take Rubio. I can see Memphis/OKC not doing it because Fagen said "no way" but Sacramento has a mild, Mediteranian climate and it's in Cali. I guess will never find out.
Anyhoo, I'm looking forward to this season however it turns out.
Now for a coach.....
PSR-
Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic that we took Rubio, no matter what he thinks of Minnesota. I just think that we should play hardball with him, if he has doubts about Minneapolis being his preferred destination. Or maybe not even hardball--cater to him all you can with his type of coach being hired, etc, but just don't trade him because it looks like it's going to be a struggle. Because, when it boils down to it, having Rubio on your team is going to look a lot better than having the benefit of trading Rubio for whatever he's worth. Especially when you have the skilled bigs that we have. We're one defensive big, and one skilled wing (or not, depending on Ellington) away from having a great young nucleus that could contend for titles, down the road. It only takes a couple great players to be a contender, and Rubio-Jefferson could be great, with the help of Flynn-Love.
There is something else that noone is really mentioning, Kahn has put Rubio into the best possible situation to lower his buyout in Spain. The Wolves have options if he doesn't come over right away, it may actually be better for the team long-term. Rubio doesn't have to come this year, he'll still have a job and wiould be basically making the same money. That gives him a lot of leverage to reduce his buyout. The fact that his buyout is now property of the Spanish IRS is also helpful. They have no reason to want to keep him in Spain. If he stays that don't get the money; if he goes next year, I believe they get significantly less money. They have every incentive to give Rubio the best deal this year to get him to pay some of the buyout.
I agree, Andy G. They want him here, so they should be doing the appropriate things to keep him here. And since they hold his rights, they should take a hard stance. To me, his feelings about MN aren't really determined, despite people's best efforts to try to do that.
I'm personally really excited for the upcoming Twolves season even if Rubio doesn't play. If he does, i'll soil my pants. Either way, win-win
I am willing to give Kahn more than a little credit for being two steps ahead of the league on this one. ANY team picking Rubio was taking something of a flier. The Wolves were being ridiculed by the national press (pre-draft) for "trading for the fifth pick in a four-player draft", and yet now that we let Rubio fall into our laps WITHOUT giving up Love OR the 5/6, we are being pilloried?? What a joke. Picking Flynn at 6 was a stroke of genius. Not only was he the BPA, and one of the handful of NBA-ready players in the entire draft (Griffin, Harden, Curry, and who?), but he represents leverage, in the VERY likely event that Rubio decides not to play next year. We hold ALL THE CARDS here. Rubio might not like it. The Knicks and the national media might hate it, but we can afford to let Rubio's game age like fine wine. Unlike KG's situation, where the rest of the league was able to wait us out, now WE can sit back and call the shots.
Hey Brit,
Why is no one talking about selling Minnesota to Rubio?
For American players, who know where Minneapolis is and what it's like, selling the city may not be a problem.
But for someone not from here, who may have wrong or misinformed idea about life in Minneapolis, without having personally visited there, it may do good to talk to the kid. Bring him over and show him around town. That is sure to change his mind. Especially, if we do that before the winter hits.
Of course, that doesn't solve the problem of Dan the Fegan!
Anyway, I am really, really glad that we are actually talking about T'Wolves in a hopeful way!! How is that not an improvement?
Go Kahn!
A man with a plan and it includes thoughts of defense! I heard parts of Kahn's news conference and then the interview with Barreiro today on KFAN, and he sounds so common-sensical: "They're young kids with great skills and they should grow both physically and mentally ... we won't trade any of them yet, we need to see what we have ... it's going to take a few years... we don't know how these guys are going to turn out, but I think it will be fun watching them to see."
Kahn's generated excitement again for this franchise and I agree with him that I'm excited to see training camp (though in now hurry to see this beautiful summer fly by.)
Several thoughts. First, a snarky one to nip something in the bud: Captain America, how about backing off on the "Dingus Khan" stuff? It's not that clever when used once, and surely not that clever when used every other sentence. Let's keep this site smart and forward looking for awhile. God knows we had a tough go of it trying to keep our anger under control the last several years. So, keep your comments smart and mature. That's what makes this site what it is.
Now, to the second thought. If we do get Rubio, and I hope we do, how does Al with his slow feet and half court game fit in with a run-and-gun team? Suddenly, the Amare for Jeff trade (minus the pick) doesn't seem so goofy. But we'd probably have to hire Paul Westhead to be the coach and go for 140 points a game.
Any thoughts on Jeff with this newly constructed backcourt?
I'm pretty happy with the draft; I liked Thabeet and Jennings but I understand I'm in a minority on that. I'm a little confused why people are already talking about Rubio in superstar terms though. Put him on ice in Spain for a year or two and see what we've got with Flynn and maybe he comes here or maybe we can make a nice trade, but hire a coach to please him? Compare trading him to trading KG, Barkley, etc? Are we getting a bit carried away?
I'm actually thrilled to just have Flynn; it looks like we finally have a solid young PG and I can't wait to see him play next year. Whatever happens with the Rubio circus is just icing on the cake, and will almost certainly be worth Miller/Foye. Even if we start seeing headlines like "the Rub on Rubio," or "Wherefore art thou, Rubio" Kahn will still have done well.
Is David Kahn really Danny Kaye?
I was at the Target Center watching the draft unfold. When Stern announced Sacramento's pick of Evans, the elation that surged through me (and the rest of the crowd) was absolutely electric--I haven't been so excited about something Timberwolves-related in years.
The Flynn pick was another story. I personally was a fan of Curry (mostly thanks to the boosting over SnP's site) at that spot, and last night thought it a huge mistake; but today, after further reflection and reading Kahn's letter to fans over on Jerry Zgoda's Strib blog, I am okay with it. There weren't really any non-PG options available, so it was pretty much either Flynn or Curry there; and it's not as if Curry would have paired with Rubio much better than Flynn, and likely been a significantly worse defender. Plus there are all the intangible solid-citizen benefits to Flynn which you describe.
The rest of the picks I also have no problem with, except for the trade of Calathes to the Mavericks--he was a bit of a steal where we got him, and since he was going to Greece there was no harm in just holding on to him and seeing how he panned out. I thought we got too little in return, also.
But that is just a minor quibble; when the dust settled, the Wolves ended up adding not just several solid prospects and more draft picks, but perhaps the best player in the draft--with the potential to be one of the most transcendent talents in the entire NBA. I'm quite pleased with how it all turned out.
Call me a Kahn-Aid drinker, but I have been very impressed with 90% of the moves he's made thus far. For the first time in the team's history, it feels like there is someone in charge who has a plan and actually knows what they're doing. Maybe that seemingly-bungled GM selection process delivered a decent result after all.
I dont know how anyone who watched the Olympics or just youtubes Rubio can not be excited. I understand the hesitation but really this guy is like Jason Williams in his "White Chocolate" days, add alot of steal ability, amazing body control and the ability to lead. I know im surmising alot off of what little I have gazed upon but really, just watch him, he screams potential. To add to that unlike Foye and McCants this guy has proven upon the big stage. Oh and he is still really young. Just a reminder that all us wolves fans need, its ok to get excited about your team sometimes.
As I think about it, and as I reflect on Kahn's character and methods after listening to him deal with Barriero and others who push him in ways he chooses not to go, it occurs to me that this calm, reasonable, ostensibly concerned and supportive attitude toward Rubio's difficult decision to come to America or stay in Europe is really nothing more than a flashing of a dagger from beneath his cloak. What he is saying, if I read him correctly, is, "We're not trading you. If you want to play in the U.S. you'll play for us. Otherwise, you'll sit back in Spain for as long as it takes you to figure out that the only way to the NBA is by coming to Minnesota."
He can couch it in any terms he wishes, but I read Kahn's whole "patience" thing as a direct threat to Rubio and his family. Simply put, the road to the NBA runs through Minnesota, so get used to it.
All in all, I'm thinking that Kahn is showing himself to be a brilliant strategist. He's playing chess while the other gm's are playing checkers. I love listening to the boys from Bristol squealing about how Donnie Walsh is going to call Kahn to begin negotiations about getting Rubio to New York. In your dreams, Mr. Walsh. Finally, we have a gm who doesn't look upon trades as a garage sale, and who can't be seduced by a bucket of spare parts. I hope Mr. Taylor and Mr. McHale are watching closely. The new kid in town is smiling, lethal, and very, very competent.
Go to what is titled. Crazy Trade Rumors - Jonathan Givony was the first to break the news that Kevin McHale had huge man crush on Kevin Love early last summer and that the Wolves would ultimately (through draft or trade) get him. If you can, you should book him
http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony/#Live-Blogging-the-2009...
-A complicated three-way trade involving New Jersey, Minnesota and Memphis, which would send Devin Harris to Minnesota, the #5 and #6 picks to Memphis and Ricky Rubio and Craig Smith to New Jersey.
This coincides with what Ian Thomson from CNNSI wrote on draft night on his blog that the Nets were pushing Devin Harris and the number #11 pick for the #5 pick.
Go to 7:09PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/basketball/nba/06/25/draft.day.blo...
I'm not sure if anyone is reading the spanish press on this. According to them, Ricky has no intention of coming here: http://www.marca.com/2009/06/26/baloncesto/nba/1246040526.html
W + Will--
Okay, so a guy with connections to McHale's coterie on the Wolves helps put out a rumor for a trade that would be wildly positive for Memphis--they had been asking, and were turned down by Kahn, for #5 and #6 for what was then regarded as the Rubio draft slot--and wildly positive for New Jersey. But for the Wolves, not so much, obviously, since a backcourt of Harris and Flynn makes no sense.
This same guy Givony has since published an item full of unnamed sources saying that Rubio is upset because the Wolves drafted Flynn. Uh-huh. If you go to the always invaluable canishoopus.com site, you'll see that they've already lambasted Givony for all the right reasons.
Seriously, let's keep our common sense here. How is Kahn's hand not strengthened by staying pat with the status quo? If you buy the silly argument that fans will stay away because Rubio isn't coming immediately, and that you have to get immediately tangible value for Rubio this year rather than wait for that value to rise, I'd say fans paying close enough attention to know who Rubio is are also smart enough to know why keeping his rights is the appropriate play here.
geahp--
The Spanish press is quite understandably mirroring Rubio's spin on things. But it kind of omits the trump card the Wolves hold. Rubio's leverage is weak, amounting to cutting off his nose to spite his face. If he wants to stay in Europe dazzling global hoops fans with his improvement and potential, all it does it strengthens the Wolves' position.
At some point it time, it will dawn on Rubio that the fastest way to the Knicks or the Heat or whomever is to put in his service in Minnesota and then opt for free agency. And during those years in the NBA, his perspective will change dramatically.
Again, what in the world is everyone getting so worked up about in June of 2009? The rights to Ricky Rubio don't have an expiration date, and won't be declining in value for a long long long time.
Rubio is an 18 year old acting like...an 18 year old. He has read his press clippings, as anyone would, and believes he is on top of the world.
Still, he is an impressive young man with an obviously strong attachment to mother and father.
This was not the 2009 NBA Draft for Minnesota. This was part one of the 2011 NBA Draft for Minnesota.
In a way it even helps us if Rubio does not come over immediately; the team almost certainly will have a worse 2009-10 record in that case, meaning an earlier draft pick next year.
Has anyone else tried to come up with a plausible, mutually satisfactory, trade for Rubio? I can't think of a team that both has the type of assets Minny would ask for, and would be willing to part with those assets for such an undeniably risky prospect. Golden State? Chicago? Portland? Certainly not New York.
CA and Jackdaw--
Yes and yes, although I'd selfishly like to see Rubio asap in Minnesota.
Rubio represents a significant step in the return of basketball to MN, whether as a player or as big-time trade bait. As Britt and others have stated, his value does absolutely nothing but appreciate over time (particularly if he remains in Europe.) Another losing season in 2009-10 for the Knicks or any other team that covets Rubio will do nothing but make the fan bases of those teams more rabid. Meanwhile, the national media will do nothing but inflate perceptions of (as Britt said) his already legendary potential. And Kahn has said and done all the right things. All he needs to do is sit back and wait for the dividends to pay off. Wolves fans should try to relax and savor the long-term possibilities.
I've just read an article in El Pais that states essentially the same thing as gheap's post. Rubio's comments is that he had the idea of playing for Sacramento and he locked in on that. He states that he didn't talk to Minnesota and therefore he's not coming here.
Another impressive fact is that his professional debut was at 14 (14!) and he was the youngest Olympian for Spain at age 17. I've only seem some video clips of him but I agree with everyone that this kid has huge potential. I think the Wolves snapped up Flynn thinking Rubio wasn't coming for a couple of years anyway. The use of the back to back picks was brilliant from a strategic and tactical point of view.
As far as Flynn, just watch the scintillating instant classic between Syracuse and UConn in the Big East semi-final this year. Flynn played something like 67 minutes (including I think every minute of the OTs. He sank 16-16 FT's and had 34 points. This kid has got an NBA body but even more important, he has a huge heart.
Kahn either outsmarted himself or panicked on taking Rubio.
Drafting Flynn and Curry would have gotten us a nice backcourt for years to come and would have sent ticket sales off the charts.
It is very unlikely that Kahn will be able to,in the future, extort the Knicks or anyone else something equal to lottery pick Curry.
Also Curry is a guy who would appreciate the TC.Rumor has it that he has read a book.
Rubio is a big city kid from Spain,where the evenings are warm and people hang out in the streets til 3 am.January in Minneapolis?
Ron--
Seriously, you think Flynn and Curry have a higher buzz factor among the Wolves fan base than Rubio? And you think 6-0 and 6-3 amounts to a "nice backcourt for years"? It doesn't matter how many books Curry has read, it won't help him defend against the bigger 2-guards in the league, the guys who gave the taller Randy Foye fits last year when he slid over. Meanwhile, the outsmarted, panicked Kahn turned down extortion to move up in order to take Rubio, and is now fielding offers from other clubs who want him.
I've long been a reader of both the excellent blog and insightful comments here. My favorite NBA spot. Thanks to all involved!
It seems most of the board are satisfied with the Flynn pick. I watch little college hoops to begin with and also have no eye for discerning NBA talent from the amateur ranks. Perhaps I should defer to the wisdom of the majority...but...
Why not take DeRozen with the six pick to work with Rubio? An athletic 2 to pair with either Gomes or Brewer at the 3? Run run run with Love, Brewer/Gomes, and DeRozen and when not fast breaking settle into the half court with AlJeff.
Rubio (6'4), Derozen (6'6) and Gomes (6'8) playing his natural 3 would give some size on the perimeter to perhaps compensate for our smallish interior.
Jacob--
A legitimate question. I too know little about the college game. I do know that the gap of opinion on Derozen was wider than perhaps any other lottery pick, with some thinking him a stud and others vastly overrated.
My enthusiasm for Flynn came from what I've heard and read; although I did watch much of the second half and overtimes of that incredible NCAA tournament game. I've got to say, "character" stuff can be easily overblown, but for those of us in the local media, his first phone call was spot-on charming, and will get him the benefit of the doubt for awhile from everyone who heard it.
Britt,
It is good to see optimism out of you. I felt bad for you last year when all there was to write about were shortcomings. It wasnt your fault, it was just the situation and it is much better to see you write positive.
Whether or not we get Rubio this year, Kahn made the right choice. There was no way he could have passed on Rubio because he would have taken much more heat than he is now. He has shown that he can parlay out trash into other teams treasure. We have a good base, with a possibility of a great draft next year and free agent room. Granted some of that was gotten by Mchale, Kahn has shown in his little time that he is looking for talent. I think we should be very happy with this draft even if we did trade away Calathes:P.
DeRozen's skill set overlaps way too much with Brewer's- all kinds of athleticism/ potential but no jump shot and still learning to play a position. And as for all the overblown moaning about not picking Curry... How, after years of watching Foye flounder between positions, can people be complaining about the Wolves not drafting Curry, another talented tweener who, sure, will score in bunches, but will also give up equal numbers of easy baskets on defense?
I was ecstatic with the Rubio pick and then initially devastated by the Flynn selection. Even with an eye to the future, I don't see how both can play with each other, especially on the defensive end. I was hoping they'd pick Curry at 6 and trade him immediately for extra picks/assets. Hell, they probably still could have picked up Flynn with the Knick's pick if they really wanted him at 8. At the same time, Flynn is proving to be a good short term insurance plan, so I'll live with it.
Still, getting Rubio is a huge coup and gives us some hope for the future. Kahn just needs to stick to his guns and ride the current situation out. For the love of god, do NOT trade him. A year or two more of development will actually be the best cast scenario as we'll get a better Rubio when he comes over and hopefully be fielding a better team that might make him more inclined to stick around. By that time, the team will also have a better idea of what we've got in Flynn.
Trading out of 18 for a pick next year and the Ellington selection were good moves. I was initially pumped with the Calathes selection in the 2nd round, as we could've stashed him away as another asset to trade later on, and disappointed in the garbage we got for him. That other Euro we took looked like one of the most athletically challenged, non-YMCA-league-based baller's I've seen in my life. Why is it that teams like the Spurs utilize the 2nd round so well and we rarely take advantage of it?
Overall, at least this draft makes us interesting/relevant again.
I really appreciated what Kahn said in the press conference with Flynn, and Ellington. When they announced Flynn, I too was kind of baffled selecting a point guard right after Rubio. Then when I heard Kahn talk about Flynn's on the ball defender skills, I could see the fire in Kahn's eyes. Did someone mention (I've read a lot) that some of Kahn's cohorts thought Flynn was the best player in the draft. Also that letter to Jerry Zgoda is really encouraging. Not the least because he makes such cogent arguements for the decisions they made on draft night. I really look forward to having a 3 point assassin like Ellington in the Wolves line up too. Britt I also enjoy reading optimism in your Wolves writing. I'm excited, and don't want to read anymore of this Dingus Kahn BS.
Let's see what happens. One caveat, I would be happy if he would go with Bill Laimbeer or Sam Mitchell, and not immediately go to Mark Jackson. That pick while possibly valid, would smack of nepotism, because of the Pacer connection, and that would strike me, the abused Wolf fan of McHale-like behavior. (I'm fully aware of how paranoid that sounds, but I am a wolf fan and I'm coming down from 13 years of nonsense.)
After a couple of days, here's how it looks from inside my brain which is full of half-knowledge, hope, and scars.
Kahn was blindsided by Rubio's availability. Suddenly he had both the man he wanted and someone he couldn't turn down (at minimum because the fan base would have gone insane) available to him. Whether he had assumed he was going to get Harden or Curry or someone else to go along with Flynn, I can't guess. But Rubio? That was a true curve ball. So he did what he had to: picked Rubio with the higher pick, because that gave Rubio more future value if he needed to trade, and more leverage for a buyout if Rubio decided to come. But Kahn knew that Rubio didn't want to be here and was being led, quite rightly, by a family that cared about their son and did not want to send him alone across the ocean into the NBA culture in a city that they equated with Helsinki or Minsk.
So now Kahn's sitting on a draft pick that thinks he doesn't want to be here and a family that intends to stay with their son and KNOWS they don't want to be here. Ricky might be on the road all winter, so he can be argued out of his antipathy toward Minnesota. But his family will be here, and the prospect of Minnesota nights in January doesn't do much for folks who are used to late night promenades and casual outdoor meals in Barcelona, one of the most beautiful cities in the world (which, I am sorry to say, Minneapolis and St. Paul are not).
What to do? He loves Flynn (and I think we all do after seeing the press conference and listening to the idiocy that has been coming out of Brandon Jenning's yap), sees Flynn as the charismatic, hardworking leader this team needs, but has his hooks on a kid who may be brilliant beyond measure but doesn't fit with Flynn and/or doesn't want to be here. Essentially, he is in a box. He comes up with a suspect but possibly viable theory that these two can play together, trotting out comparisons to Earl the Pearl and Walt Frazier, knowing that he's grasping at straws.
Thus we come to the current moment. He has one trump card: the coach. Can he find someone he can afford who truly believes that these two can work together? It should be an offensive coach with experience who can sell tickets and, ideally, has played point so he can make Rubio feel that he will be mentored in the NBA game. Let's see -- who is that? The name Saunders comes to mind. Ouch. Thanks, Kevin McHale, for dragging your ample feet on making a decision.
So, no Saunders. Who as a coach can make this kid want to come here? That is the question of the day.
The other question remains Big Al and his half court, black hole offense. We can't give up his scoring, but if I'm Rubio I want nothing to do with a "walk it up, jam it down to the big man" game. Even with a great coach, this team is not constructed for the kind of game Rubio wants, and certainly not for the kind of game we'd have to play to get Rubio and Flynn involved in a creative offense.
I keep seeing the image of Amare Stoudamire rising up before me. Talk about risk-reward. More matador defense, brittle body parts, a suspect attitude. But, man, that guy can run. And he's played with Steve Nash. He's the Appaloosa to Big Al's Clydesdale. Scary scenario, right?
But what else to do? To get Rubio we need a coach he can revere and a team he can run. We need a Ferrari, not a Humvee. A case can be made that this team was half-constructed to be a racehorse team, what with Carney and Brewer. But the trade for Big Al made that impossible. Now we have a team with no viable identity either offensively or defensively, and little potential to develop one with the current conflicting cast of characters.
It seems that beyond the Mexican standoff that Kahn is doing with Rubio, he needs to be shooting for the side pockets with his choice of coach and his manipulation of the current roster. I think he truly wants to give this two-headed monster a try, and he sees KLove as the outlet passer from heaven who can make this thing work. But, unless Big Al becomes Willis Reed to the guards, Kahn's got to act on the current roster, and his best player is the one who doesn't fit. Get rid of Big Al to build the Ferrari team that will convince Rubio to come? Or trade Rubio and watch the Twin Cities go up in flames about this year's version of the Roy for Foye trade?
I don't know nothin' about nothin'. But I sure do wish we could trade one of our number one's for Flip, turn Al into Amare, and have one of the spare parts from the Washington trade turn into a defensive monster in the middle. Oh, and I wish we could make Minneapolis into Barcelona while I'm at it.
One good thing. It appears that we are going to be the least tatooed team in the league, and that has to be worth something.
Great comments and insight on this here forum as always. I have to say that I am very excited about the new direction this team is taking. It was tough being a fan the past 5 or so years but I feel good again about this squad. A few questions to those who are more in the know than I....
1) What shooting guard is out there in free agency that we could go after?
2) Thoughts on trades? You would have to think that we need to trade away one of our power forwards. Craig Smith?? Brian Cardinal??
I think that we are going to end up dealing Smith and Telfair. Kahn is on a mission to get rid of all the players left behind from McHale. I even think that Jefferson or Love will be traded this year as well. Jefferson will probably have alot of value at the trade deadline if he comes back healthy and puts up similar numbers......
Just a couple of thigs. First, I like others was shocked that RR fell to the 5th pick. Then was equally shocked we took Flynn over Curry. Upon reflection I LOVE Flynn's game I saw several Syracuse games toward the end of the year. That classic 6 OT game was perhaps the "GREATEST GAME" I have watched from start to finish, and Flynn's make up, determiation to NOT LOSE!, make every free throw under pressure, hit big shots, all the while playing a ridiculous amount of minutes in his 3rd game in 3 days, showed me he's the real thing.
That being said, as others have mentioned the Wolves have the leverage if there is a trade. They can wait, take their time, and while negotiating a trade, like Olvier Twist said.. "I'd like some more, please"
A final FYI... I don't know how many here listen to Chris Meyers/Chad Hartmann Fox talk show.. it turns out that Khan and Hartman were college roomates, and extremely tight. I heard a great interview on Friday with them, where Khan was funny, glib, and brilliant. I think there may be some interesting interviews down the road for these 2.
Dave
One important consideration for anyone speculating about Kahn's true intentions is that Base Year Compensation status for a handful of young stars expires on July 1, 2009. These players are virtually untradeable until that time comes, because of the effect it has on their outgoing trade value for salary purposes. I don't know all of the BYC players, but here are a few that have, at one point or another, been included in trade rumors:
Monta Ellis
Luol Deng
Devin Harris
Josh Smith
Anyway, if Kahn has expressed interest in any of those players, or has any three-team deals that involve them on the table, we probably won't know much about it until after July 1.
I have no interest in bringing back Flip. If there's an example of a successful coach who doesn't think outside the box, he's it.
As for Al, he's a better player than Stoudemire, he makes less, and his contract isn't up in a year. As for being unable to play in an uptempo style: it's not like the Wolves have been walking the ball up the past two years because he can't get down the floor, and it's not like he's only effective in postups. Maybe he wouldn't be a good fit with an uptempo style, but the only way to find out is by playing one and seeing how he adjusts. Part of the reason he needed so much time to score at certain points was because he had to initiate his own offense; if other guys are creating some shots for him, he probably becomes a more effective player.
I'm not sure what this team's going to look like at the start of camp, but my guess is that there will be some guys on the team for a year in order to fill holes in the roster wherever they might be. It doesn't seem like their goal is to have a roster with all of the pieces in place by October, but I also think there will be free agents available who could step in and fill a role.
Interesting thoughts, PagingStanleyRoberts. What are your thoughts (or anyone else's) about who is an appropriate coach for this team as it is shaping up, and why?
Personally, I'm curious whether Brian Shaw or Kurt Rambis could be effective without Phil Jackson/Tex Winter. Shaw supposedly has the type of style that Kahn said he wanted to carry over from McHale, and though I'm not crazy about Rambis, he was an interim coach for the Lakers the season before Phil was hired.
Others could be Elston Turner of the Rockets (longtime Adelman assistant), Mike Budenholzer from the Spurs, Ty Corbin of the Jazz. I wouldn't even be against someone like Del Harris, who did a good job with the pre-Shaq and Kobe Lakers and has a lot of NBA experience.
To me, as important with a young team is having a lot of assistant coaches for development purposes. Maybe they don't have 7 of them like the Mavs used to, but getting a big man coach to improve Jefferson and Love's post defense, a shooting coach to improve Brewer/Flynn/maybe Rubio in that area, and other coaches to improve players in other specific areas and help with game strategy could make things easier for the head coach and the players.
Do you think it is a possibility we find an international coach? It would fit rubio and I would have to imagine some very innovative and talented coaches are out there. I think this would be a headline grabber and might even be able to thrust us forward as far as motivation. What do you guys think?
Quick hit:
Darren Wolfson interviewed Flynn after his workout here 10 days ago. Flynn proudly announced to Doogie that his team won the 3 on 3. I love it!
PagingStanleyRoberts' comment regarding getting good assistant coaches to develop our young guys is spot on. I actually think the Wolves are going to really miss having McHale there to tutor the bigs. Say what you want about his GM and coaching abilities but he always seemed to love the role of teacher. Look at Al's dominance on the low block and even Love's improvement as the season wore on. I'd even put guys like Craig Smith on the list of players who learned a trick or two from big Kev.
When you think about it, a guy like McHale is the perfect teacher. He was never a freak athlete. He made himself a HOF player by honing his craft and maximizing every situation. In contrast you have a player like Jordan who, while being a hard worker, was physically superior to almost every player on the court. You can't teach that. I think I'm going to miss not having McHale around to pass on the "Slippery Eel" to the next generation of bigs.
JuneMonsoon,
Here is one trade:
Clipper send
Eric Gordon - a 2nd year SG who proved his ability last year to create his own shot plus hit the 3 in 30+ min/game of playing time.
Marcus Camby - a true center with an expiring contract that would make him a very valuable trade asset at the deadline next season
The better of the Clips pick or the one we owe them in the 2010 draft. (Get's us out of that hole - no more liabiliy)
MN sends
Rubio - fills Clippers dire need for a PG and a buzz to market against the Lakers plus puts Rubio in a big market for more plentiful endorsements.
Brian Cardinal - an expiring contract filler that willingly sits to allow Griffin to play (something that will be tough for Griffin if Camby, Randolph and Kaman all stay on the roster.)
The $$$ are close - might need some filler. But this is the type of deal that I think will ultimately be had with Kahn showing patience.
Looking forward (while we wait a few months for the Rubio Riddle to resolve)...
It should be obvious to anyone here that the Wolves will NOT be picking up any significant free agent.
The real activity with respect to the Timberwolves roster will be trading the expiring contracts of Brian Cardinal, Mark Madsen, and Craig Smith. Maybe Etan Thomas.
Of course, that means that the trading partners would be teams looking to dump salary in order be players in next year's free agent feeding frenzy.
And remember, Kahn is only interested in young players, presumably centered around Jefferson's age (24).
JAF- I don't see the Wolves making that trade. It's basically Rubio for Gordon and a first-rounder. I like Gordon, but Rubio appears to have a much higher ceiling.
The Wolves may trade Rubio, but if it happens before he ever dons a Wolves jersey, I expect it to be for an offer they can't refuse ... Think "the Cowboys end of the Herschel Walker trade" or "the Redskins for the Ricky Williams pick." (sorry for the NFL examples, but I can't think of any similar NBA trades.
Hey JAF...
Not a bad idea, but I'm not keen on Camby. I don't think he's young enough, or good enough, for the Wolves to keep once his current contract ends.
On Canis, I proposed trading Love and Rubio's rights to NJ for Lopez and Courtney Lee. OF course, there will be the expected howls against trading Love, but in my opinion, he just is too limited. Yet he's too good to only play when Jefferson takes a blow. Both Lopez and Lee have shown that they can play and fit nicely into the Wolves' "program".
Hopefully, there are even better deals out there than either of these.
If Sabonis had been drafted in this time period, and the Blazers sat on him like they did, the haul they eventually got for him would've been huge.
Somewhat different situation, but somewhat similar.
A little late edit. My previous post:
A final FYI... I don't know how many here listen to Chris Meyers/Chad Hartmann Fox talk show.. it turns out that Khan and Hartman were college roomates, and extremely tight.
I meant of course, STEVE Hartman.
levi,
I am not a big fan of Camby either - too old for the long term. I would never keep him.
But his value is 2 fold:
1- You get to see how Jefferson/Love play with a legit, defensive center. (At least until trade deadline - see below) Does it work? What do you gain? What do you lose? Hopefully it helps answer the question of what skill sets do you need in a future young big to complement Jefferson/Young?
2- For the last several years contending teams have highly valued an "extra" big for the playoff push at the trade deadline. Camby would be a very valuable trade asset - and would definitely be traded for hopefully a couple of young players plus a draft choice.
But as others said, I think there will be lots of trade options floated around - just hope for patience.
Just A Fan,
Did you leave a Wolves player (or two) out of your Clippers trade scenario? Camby alone can't trade straight up for Cardinal, much less adding Gordon.
Rubio's draft choice is worth $0 in trade calculations and even after signing a contract his salary the 1st year will be relative peanuts.
Thus, the RealGm.com trade checker shows us that the "least expensive" contracts that the Wolves would need to send for Camby+Gordon is the combo of Cardinal, Madsen, and Pecherov (after 60 days have passed) to get the salary match in range. Basically that's most of the Wolves big guns in the "expiring contract" ploy. I really hope for more, a lot more, out of those.
Here's a notion, if both are indeed on the market: Would you trade Ricky Rubio to the Celtics for Rajon Rondo?
Britt,
Just sayin - if the Wolves wanted Harris, he could be their for the taking and it WASN'T just Givony who has been saying it. CNNSI's Ian Thomsen reported one version of the NJ-MN trade proposal. Even Zgoda posted recently, that Harris was waived Minnesota's way. He says it was in efforts to get Al Jefferson, but I don't know if that's correct. Even Chad Ford TODAY echoed that NJ wanted Rubio last week. Ford does say a trade is unlikely, but it shows the kind of commodity Rubio is when you can say 'no' to a 21 and 7 assist guy who is making less than Al Jefferson.
On Today’s NBA Chat with ESPN’s Chad Ford
Alex (nj)9:19 AM
One more question from a depressed Nets fan.Is there any truth to the rumors that the nets were shopping Harris (to minnesota) before the draft and why in the world would they want to do that? The kid is a young all-star PG with a more then managable salary (something like 8mil per)… Why try to trade him?
Chad Ford 10:11 AM
There was a little bit of truth to it. They really liked Ricky Rubio … but I don’t think it will happen.
I'll hang up and listen (check back to what you have to say in a day or so).
W + Will--
Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant the last time. I have no doubt that other teams are trying to stir up rumors that result in the Wolves parting with Rubio. But if you look carefully enough, you can usually tell where the fingerprints are coming from. For example, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Kahn and the Wolves let it be known that Memphis wanted the #5 and #6 pick, or one of those picks and Love, in exchange for the second overall pick. That way, die-hard Wolves fans would be aware of what Kahn was talking about when he said the price was too high.
But on this Harris rumor; clearly, Harris is being shopped by New Jersey. Clearly, the Nets are very interested in Rubio. I don't doubt either of these things one bit. But I also think the deals you described before don't benefit the Wolves, as I mentioned in my last post. The fact that folks other than the Wolves continue to try and fan these flames doesn't change the basics of what I said then.
Put simply: Harris and Flynn doesn't make sense. And it remains true that waiting on the Rubio situation seems to be overwhelmingly the Wolves best course of action. Unless Kahn gets bowled over with an amazing deal, why not sit tight and see what transpires? Aside from taking out a hefty insurance policy on Rubio, doing nothing seems about right right now.
Britt - awesome as usual.
What's your take on reports coming out now (Zgoda, for example) that the reason that Ricky Rubio doesn't want to play for Minnesota is because of the selection of Jonny Flynn. And, in fact, he won't come here until and unless they trade him?
PlanB- I obviously can't speak for Britt, but my response would be, What leverage does Rubio have to force a trade? The Wolves hold all the chips, IMO. Here's a great post at Canis Hoopis that illustrates the Wolves position.
Sorry, here's the link: http://www.canishoopus.com/2009/7/1/931546/why-the-wolves-hold-the-power-in
Thanks for your thorough response Britt. If a Devin Harris and Jonny Flynn backcourt do not work, I am assuming it would be mostly from the defensive side. If that is the case, how does a Rubio / Flynn backcourt work? I'm guessing you are prescribing to the "Joe Mauer" growth spurt and Rubio will end up in the 6'5 or 6'6 range when all is said and done.
BTW - I have been a fan of your blogs now for two years so I gave you a shout out on one of my Tweets (with a link going back to your blog). What, you think Kevin Love is the only one with a Twitter account?? For true hilarity, check out 'the Real Shaq' Twitter feed. Apparently it is a verified account.
PlanB--
After reading Zgoda today, I almost put out a separate post entitled "Is Ricky Rubio Afraid of Competition?"
Why is Zgoda allowing Rubio's agent to spin him so readily? Does he seriously believe what he wrote, which is that Rubio is sincerly considering, rather than blatantly bluffing, about signing a contract that will prevent him from playing with the Wolves--which means any NBA team--for four years?
Remember when you were 18 and wanted to do something? If someone told you if you just waited until you were 22 it might all work out, would that have mollified you?
Then there is this business of the Wolves somehow betraying Rubio by drafting Flynn right afterwards. If Fegan really believes Flynn can eat into Rubio's *second NBA contract* by signficantly depriving him of development time, then he has a hell of a lot less faith in Rubio than I do, or David Kahn does.
This is all very simple. Rubio and his agent are trying out pressure points to see if they can get Kahn and the Wolves to give them what they prefer. Because this specious public relations game is all they've got, short of cutting off Rubio's nose to spite his face.
That the national media would go along because they want to see Rubio in a major market as surely as they once wanted Garnett--remember Sam Smith's endless bullshit about KG going to the Bulls?--is sad but predictable. But I don't understand Zgoda's stance. Early on he took a position that Kahn was a bad choice, and at the moment Kahn was hired, I was leaning that way myself. But in my view, at least, what Kahn has done since taking the job has been noteworthy and mostly admirable. As I've mentioned before, stylistically he's not my type, but I'm not judging him on demeanor or some personal vibe; but on his ability to improve the Timberwolves. The whole tenor of today's Strib piece--that Kahn has "a lot to juggle," what with free agents and the Rubio negotiations, etc., makes it sound like he's really put himself in a pickle somehow. Any rational reading of the situation would reveal that's not the case.
I haven't read Stop n Pop's take over at Canis yet, but I'm guessing it is similar to mine on this.
Britt,
Thanks, as ever, for your take on this issue in particular.
Since the draft, I have been alternately puzzled and annoyed at Zgota's writing on the Wolves. As you said, Zgota obviously is no fan of Kahn. Fine. Like you, I don't necessarily warm to Kahn's personality. Still, cocksure and slick though he may be, I find his assertiveness and lucid thinking a marvelous change from the McHale-Taylor managerial dysfunction we've suffered through the past several years.
Zgota's rising to the bait on this notion that Fegan will never let Rubio play along side Flynn is as absurd as it is insulting. In a recent story, Zgota even threw out the howler that the Wolves' drafting Flynn is a bigger impediment to Rubio's ever playing here than is the cold weather and supposed second-tier market that is the Twin Cities. Give me a break. If Fegan intimated that Rubio would really prefer a more up-and-down-the-court big man than Big Al, and thus does not really feel Rubio's "game" suits the Wolves, would Zgota also dutifully peddle that nonsense?
I am also agog at the apparent readiness of many here and on Canis to send Flynn packing at the earliest good trade offer for him. (Fernandez for Flynn? Good Lord. No way.) Many posting on this board have forgotten more about NBA hoops than I will ever know, and I admit that I might be totally off the mark on evaluating Flynn's NBA talent, but if I were Kahn and had to choose (gun to head and so forth), I would pick Flynn over Rubio straight up as my PG ten scenarios out of ten.
I think Flynn will be a better player than Rubio, both from day one of training camp (assuming Rubio comes) and over their careers. Though even if Flynn turns out to be only pretty good, not great, the fans will be gaga over him. I predict his outsize winsome personality will do more to win back the Wolves' dying fan base than would an equally good--or even marginally better--but malcontented Rubio.
DKitz (and Britt to a lesser extent) --
Both interesting takes. I respect Zgoda for having to put up with some of the BS posters on the Strib site, but if he didn't have inside access, I wouldn't read him much. He's hit-and-miss.
When it comes to Rubio and competition, I think both he and Flynn need convincing that, if this is the plan, it can work. The guy with supposed inside access to the Wolves who posts here and on canishoopus (Just a Fan) posted over there that the Wolves were so surprised that Rubio was there that they tried in vain to make a deal to move down, trying to avoid this situation. Because they couldn't (it's the one time I wish they had 10-15 minutes to make a pick), they picked Flynn because he was clearly the best player left on their board. This, and the fact that they would've had either Harden or Evans on the board had Rubio been taken, leads me to think that this isn't part of a long-term plan.
I'm not going to speculate too much, because it wouldn't surprise me if one of these guys was moved. But Kevin Love didn't have this attitude despite a similar situation last year. He would have a valid point that his value decreases because he "played the same position" as the best player on the team, a player with a reasonable long-term deal. But his approach was to show how he would be valuable in less-than-ideal situations and that he was excited to be here and playing with Jefferson because he knew their games weren't redundant. He was misused for most of the season and still put up very respectable numbers. Maybe it's not a perfect comparison, but it still seems apt.
PSR--
I think we can turn ourselves into knots on what ifs and how shoulds. But what matters to me is that the Wolves have Rubio under terms that are very very hard to break. How he responds to that situation--and whom he entrusts to respond for him--will provide some indication of what we've got here.
The moment you let the agent of the 18-year old kid call the tune, that kid's game and potential leadership take a big hit. This is the NBA, basketball's ultimate stage, and regardless of all the lousy Wolves jokes, they play against the same teams as everybody else. Do you belong here? If so, how thoroughly? That's what every player, coddled or not, ultimately has to prove. Rubio has an exalted reputation (justified, in my view) and a visual cache on the court that will afford him more than due consideration from the organization that has him--in this case, the Wolves. But if he can't get minutes in the Wolves backcourt because of Jonny Flynn and is worried about his second NBA contract as a result, well, that says something too, and it is not very flattering to Rubio.
So let's let the string play out. Rubio carries a tremendous amount of hype--I oughta know, I helped fuel some of it--but he's still a flesh and blood teenager who has to demonstrate how much of that exalted potential can be tapped. These negotiations are the first part of that demonstration. If Rubio wants to whine about Minnesota and Jonny Flynn, that's a negotiating posture for awhile, and a sign of something deeper and less attractive if it continues. I think Ricky Rubio is the real deal. But there is only one person who can prove me right or wrong, and it ain't Jonny Flynn or David Kahn--neither of whom, by the way, are even remotely interested in holding him back.
I totally agree with the sentiments re: Zgoda. As a Wolves fan, I didn't appreciate his latest column, that all but DARED Fegan to prevent Rubio from playing alongside Flynn. Granted, one writer's column shouldn't and probably won't carry any significant weight, but it is the biggest newspaper in Minnesota, and a big sports agent probably has a big enough ego to know everything written about him and take it personally. What is Jerry doing with that column? It's not like the Rubio-Flynn situation is a fresh dilemma or he gave an interesting new take--he just spun it in a way that pointed at the agent (the one guy that we should really be worried about in Minnesota) and challenged him that any good agent wouldn't let their client enter that situation Kahn has created.
Also, and maybe Britt has insights on this beyond the obvious, but what the hell is Sid Hartman's problem with David Kahn? (The obvious, from my perspective, is that he's not a former Gopher great.) He bashed Kahn on his radio show, and on his tv show on Sunday, and sounded like a complete fool. Literally, he wasn't just second-guessing Foye-Miller for Rubio (a complete STEAL by any fan's estimation, after Rubio fell to us at 5) but he was outright bashing it, and saying McHale had a pretty nice team developed before he was let go.
Why does the Minnesota media hate Kahn? I feel like I follow the Wolves pretty closely and missed the part where he did something really stupid (aside from the Flynn selection, which he defends very intelligently, if you buy that Flynn has bigtime potential and the others available do not.)
"I think Ricky Rubio is the real deal. But there is only one person who can prove me right or wrong, and it ain't Jonny Flynn or David Kahn--neither of whom, by the way, are even remotely interested in holding him back."
Superbly stated.
Andy G- I would hope that the possibility that he might somehow influence Fegan or Kahn's actions never entered Zgoda's mind before, during or after he wrote his piece. I'm not defending his position, but I find it hard to believe that Zgoda is trying to insert himself into the situation rather than elucidating it for readers.
As for Sid, at best he is a misguided homer and an unapologetic shill for his buddies. He's been becoming gradually more irrelevant for at least a decade. Aside from the ocassional quote that only he can get, his columns are a complete and utter waste of pulpwood and soy ink. In other words, "Who cares what Sid thinks?"
Charlie Walters just reported that -
The Minnesota Timberwolves' top draft pick, Ricky Rubio, 18, will remain in Spain to play for his DKV Joventut basketball team for the remaining two years of his contract rather than try to move to the NBA this season, El Periodico reported today.
The Barcelona newspaper also says Rubio, who was paid $97,000 last season, plans to withdraw his contract lawsuit against DKV Joventut.
im not spam but just wanna say hope know more imformations here about this. it's simple.
Thanks for stopping by, Gladys!
Britt, any chance you could offer a post about the coaching options, or are you going to wait till Kahn announces and then discuss it? Thanks
Hi Britt,
I, too, am interested in your take on which of the mentioned coaching candidates would be the best fit given the current talent and future direction of the Wolves.
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