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On the Ball
The Three-Pointer: LeBeaten
Photo copyright 2008 NBAE (Photo by David Sherman/NBAE via Getty Images)
Game #25, Home Game #12: Minnesota 70, Cleveland 93
Season Record: 4-21
1. A Clean Kill
There were 3 minutes and 30 seconds left in the 3rd period when Al Jefferson spun around and nailed a 12-footer from the left block to bring the Timberwolves to within a point of the Cavs, 57-56. But nobody really expected the 4-20 Timberwolves to keep going and vanquish the 20-4 club from Cleveland. And nobody was wrong.
After an Anderson Varejao layup and a Delonte West floater signalled that the Wolves' D was not up to creating the stops required to wrest the lead, it was time for the greatest player on the planet to give the fan in all of us a few memories to replay to our inner grandkid. We'd already seen some shiny dimes--crosscourt passes to the corner whipped like a Nolan Ryan fastball for which no rotation had a response, or the flick to the big wide open beneath the rim. We'd seen two blocks on the same possession, so quick you didn't know where the ball went, and so neat you might as well call them vertical steals. We'd seen the rebound snatch, the ball casually plucked like a grape six inches above the rim. We'd seen the turbo-Kobe, the jab step and fall-back trey swishing from the rafters, and the Eastwood-with-Sondra-Locke gauntlet, where three or four opponents futilely try to block, foul, and then finally avoid the flush on a s-curve dribble-drive to the hoop. But what we hadn't seen yet was the three-dimensional neon moment and the game-defining rampage. Knowing he only comes to Minnesota once every year, LeBron James went to work checking off these final items on the list.
Wally Szczerbiak, of all people, blocked a Kevin Ollie shot and the ball went to West, who perhaps saw the shadow of the freight on his right and tossed the ball to him underhanded, the way you toss sandbags in a flood or buckets of water in a fire. James caught it in stride and maybe he dribbled--we were all too fixated on the giant strides and the swelling chest muscles (like Popeye's arms just after the spinach gulp) as he went airborne with a vengeance that made you think he might shatter the backboard with his upper body, only to send it through the cylinder the way the damp, balled paper towel goes through our wastebaskets. Three-dimensional neon? Check.
Fourth quarter time. LeBron hits a bunny jumper barely noticing Kevin Love's foul, then completes the and-one. LeBron sticks a 17-footer. LeBron drives in for a layup then roams out and hits a 24-foot trey. Meanwhile, through much of this boomlet, Rashad McCants has been trying to make this into a mano-a-boyo matchup, tumbling on the floor with LeBron for a jump ball, and getting into LeBron on the wing with his arms churning like a thresher. LeBron has unfurled the split-second glare twice during these contretemps, and does so again as he starts to back McCants down from the wing toward the post. Everybody is transfixed by what might happen next, especially Al Jefferson, whose man, rookie JJ Hixson, suddenly is the recipient of a LeBron snap-pass and throws down an uncontested dunk. With 6:35 to play--and less than nine minutes since it was a one-point game--the Cavs are suddenly up 18, 80-62. Game-defining rampage? Check.
2. Bassy On The Pine
Now-third-string point guard Sebastian Telfair received the dreaded DNP-CD tonight. Some of it was that Kevin Ollie had a very nice first half, getting to the hoop for 8 points in 13:12 and generally playing with the sort of controlled agression that inspires teammates. But most of it was coach Kevin McHale's decision to shorten his bench. When I asked McHale what Telfair had to do to get on the court, he mentioned the problem with giving two guys ten minutes and neither finding a rhythm, versus one guy for 20 minutes so he can settle in. "I'll tell you what: I'd rather not play a guy than play him for only 4 minutes," McHale said in conclusion, a reference to the paltry 3:39 Bassy got against Sacramento. So, relatively speaking, McHale was doing Telfair a favor. Bassy might even have thanked him except that McHale had just finished saying that the Wolves' offense needed to put more pace in the game and that while it was nice to run the offense through Al Jefferson early, it was also nice to have people moving without the ball and finding options beyond Al when that first look wasn't there. Telfair has proven himself capable of doing many of these things that McHale laments weren't happening. On the other hand, Bassy was 2-15 FG over his previous five games. Other media members report that he bolted out of the locker room tonight without giving interviews. In retrospect, when your 23-year old point guard who you just signed to a $4.8 million two-year deal is unhappily out of the picture and the 35-year old point guard just went minus -21 in 25:48, the priorities look a little askew.
3. A Handful of Thumbnails...Plus Two For the Thumbs
Al Jefferson passed the ball too much. When Varejao is on your hip providing single coverage, Big All can turn around and bury that push-jumper, or a half-dozen other specialty shots, pretty much whenever he wants. As it was he went 10-19 FG. I wouldn't have minded 30 shot attempts.
After a pleasant bump-up to his rookie season style strut shortly before and after McHale replaced Wittman, Randy Foye is back to doing everything not very well. Only his defensive readiness is horrible--he'll still hit the occasional shot, drop the occasional assist, and tonight he racked up three steals. But if this man is the second-best player on your team, or third, or fourth, then it is no wonder that your team now needs to go 37-20 the rest of the way just to finish at .500.
Mike Miller aggressively looked for his own shot tonight. He crashed the lane for layups, rose up for jumpers, and finished 7-12 FG with zero assists. Fine with me. BTW, all five misses were three-pointers--he was 7-7 FG inside the arc. His defense, however, brought to mind the tortoises lumbering out of the ocean to lay eggs in the sand, which helps explain Delonte West's 21 point, 5 assist night, and Miller's minus -21 in 34:41.
Kevin Love played like a rookie, and not the OJ Mayo vintage. He was scoreless in 19:12 and seemed more disoriented in the scrum than is usual. Ryan Gomes had the thankless tasks of guarding LeBron and being guarded by LeBron. He had one field goal and one rebound in 34:34, but played decent D on the mighty one for awhile. Two wide open misses in the 3rd quarter came at a crucial time for the prevailing momentum, however. Craig Smith had more difficulty than he's had to endure during his currently sunny spotlight series of games in the starting lineup. Just two rebounds in 33:50 isn't sufficient for a power forward, and those four turnovers are a nasty slash on the stat sheet, but he shot 4-7 FG and got to the line for a third of his team's free throws (4-5 FT). He's been a mildly pleasant surprise, which could be a good or a bad thing for a ballclub that has now lost 11 in a row during a stretch when his playing time has significantly increased.
Finally the plummeting spiral of Rashad McCants's current career is approaching gawker slowdown status. Shaddy missed all eight of his official field goal attempts (he was 2-2 at the line) and was a game-worst minus -25 in just 16:57, culminated by his little feud-building experience with LeBron. It's as if he is hitting the down button on his nadir with each passing game.
112 Reader Comments
Britt,
I ask this as someone who truly appreciates your unique coverage of the Wolves: Can you see a point where you decide that there's just nothing new to say about this team? I ask because I get the sense that you're almost there. Or am I projecting?
In my opinion for a person with a honest, patient eye and an attention to detail, even writing on one game there is always something new to say.
If you were interested Skyhook.
Britt, realize this is a trite question and apologies if you've answered it elsewhere, but if you were given the keys to the car by Kevin McHale today, what would be your starting lineup and rotation? and, why?
Wish I could ask a more intelligent question, but being in Japan I can't really watch the T'Wolves to agree and or disagree with your comments. Besides, I'm very interested to hear your answer to this question anyway.
Cleveland fans are lucky. They're the Vikings fans of the NBA. They get to watch the best player in the game each time their team takes the court. It's not just that he's the best *right now* but that at a very young age he's making the case for the best of all time, with a combo of power and precision that you just shouldn't see together at once.
LeBron is putting up MJ-in-his-prime numbers at 23 in an era with no 1st year expansion teams and zone defense. There are hand check rules and bigger, faster players. He can probably play each position on the court. As a small forward or guard he is simply too physically dominating to be guarded and you got the sense last night that he could get to the front of the rim whenever he wanted.
He is also a showman, which is fantastic for the NBA and apathetic Wovles fans. It's a shame he only comes once a year because he's really the only guy that NBA fans *have* to see live. It's hard to believe that someone that big can move that fast. It's like someone inflated Corey Brewer and set him loose.
Skyhook makes an interesting comment. This team is becoming beyond predictable. You know what is coming and how it will come in each and every single game.
The interesting thing now is how bad it can get. 0 for December is the most pressing big issue. Last year the team had 9 wins after January. They already have a larger OE/DE differential than last year and it is the result of a horrendous offense. They currently border a -8 ppg differential and they should pass that by the new year. With Love playing poorly and with teams catching up on their scouting with Craig Smith, they also are very close to joining Oklahoma as being the only teams in the league with only one average or above average PER performer.
Here's another rub of the McHale Godfather Option: If this really is Taylor's way of showing him the door, and if the potential changes extend to the front office (i.e. bringing in a real GM), then they can't do anything but attempt to trade Collins' expiring deal and maybe Shaddy. If Taylor knows the front office needs a change (and it does; the recent Stack quotes have been alarming, to say nothing of their complicity with McHale) then they can't go about trading away assets that can be put to better use on draft day in the hands of a competent professional who will likely have a different vision for the team. An expiring Mike Miller, Brian Cardinal, and 2 mid-to-late 1st round picks are worth a lot more after the season then they are now. I'll repeat what I said over at Hoopus a while back: this team has zero chance in 2010 free agency. They need to sign and trade someone *this* offseason. Caron Butler or Tayshaun Prince would be decent targets. They also need to be ready to pounce on guys like Trevor Ariza, who may be available if Kobe sticks around on the Lakers.
This team may be predictable in how they lose games but there is still intrigue in seeing how low they can go and what the front office does or doesn't do.
Britt-
Thanks for the dish on Bassy's DNP-CD. In truth, it would be hard for me to justify giving Bassy those minutes if this wasn't a 4-21 team and if Shaddy weren't getting rewarded with quality rotation minutes for equally poor shooting and significantly worse effort in every other aspect of the game.
I can't say I blame McHale for not giving him four minutes. And I can't blame Bassy for not wanting to say anything to the press in the heat of the moment that he'd regret today--better to just leave quietly and figure out what needs to be done to earn those minutes back.
It does sound absurd that McHale has talked about picking up the tempo, but has basically frozen out his best up-tempo player since he took over the team. It seems also like Bassy, more than the others, had a bond with Wittman and was genuinely upset to see him go.
I also can't help but wonder if there isn't some guilt by association re: who his cousin is. Bassy is locked in for 3 years and $7M. His game has taken a step back this season. But there is no sense in burying him on the bench, if for no other reason then to allow him to try to improve his trade value if McHale really doesn't see him as part of the long-term plan. A really solid backup PG can fetch a late first-round pick.
At this point last season, Duhon was piling up the DNP-CDs. All the sudden he gets into the right system with a coach willing to live with some missed shots and now he's a rock solid starter.
We lost by 23 and I still had a great time at the game. Thanks to LeBron James, for that. What an athlete.
It didn't look like Foye wanted to play, last night. I'm frankly surprised that McHale didn't sub Telfair for him in the 2nd Half. What the hell good is Foye if he's never going to drive or shoot? His defense is usually below-average, so he's worse than a non-factor out there, when he plays like that.
Jefferson, on the other hand, played a good game. He found open shooters, but they (and by they, I specifically remember two attempts by Kevin Ollie) couldn't knock down shots. He had 18 points down before the game fell out of reach. His defense and rebounding were also pretty good (although Cleveland doesn't exactly have low-post scoring threats). Also, Miller played well. It's just not enough for the Wolves when two of their starters show up for the game against a Top-3 team in the league.
The Kobe-Apologist in me wants to say that he's saving another gear for the playoffs and he's still better than LeBron. I'm not sure that's true (but will gladly be proven wrong in June). LBJ is probably the best in the world, right now. If Cleveland wins a title with this core, it'll be the most that one player has carried his team to a championship that I've ever seen.
Skyhook--
I can relate to the question. And if people stop showing up and inspiring me with their intelligent comments--I mean, S+P (who be gleaned in full flower at canishoopus.com) and Andy G and a dozen others are there with the goods every time out--then I might flip over to the greater NBA more often in my posts. But right now there are still folks who are superb coroners stopping by, suggesting new ways to embalm, dress, and conduct the eulogy. Some even hatch plans for resurrection.
Put it this way, I'm having a lot more fun and satisfaction than the players and coaches on the Wolves right now. It's the time of year to count our blessings.
The most remarkable thing about the game last night was how much more Cleveland wanted the game than the Wolves. West and Varejao were flying around after loose balls, and LeBron--playing the role of a northern Adonis--decided to kick snow in the face of the Wolves and steal the hearts of their fans. All he needed to do was pull a Dan Majerle and follow Crunch off the mini-tramp and do a couple of dunks and the humiliation would have come full circle, this being the 20th anniversary season. Their effort was better than in Sac-town, but in now exiled Randy Wittman's testosterone laden words, LeBron punched them in the mouth, and they didn't respond.
Not to disagree with S-n-P, but at this point, if they want to win back at least the respect of their fans, they should try playing harder on defense, because that's where making real effort is noticeable.
As for Telfair, the journey of getting a thousand regular minutes starts with one made basket. On a team that goes on huge scoring droughts for minutes on end, I have to believe this guy would be playing more if he could finish better. He's got no one to blame but himself. Of course, McHale continues to put McCants out there despite his loutish, punkish, anemic play. Telfair's problem isn't his cousin, it's the fact he wasn't drafted by the Iron Ranger. One huge problem here is that our man McHale still wants to stubbornly prove his picks are golden. The smile that is now being systemically wiped off his face (at least from what I can see on camera cut-away shots) is the gradual realization that they are not.
Britt -
Could you please comment on what you see as the best way for the Wolves to develop Kevin Love's skills? Watching every game broadcast locally this year [For proof come see my one man play "Don Overbeck Moves that Body After Seeing His New Christmas Lexus (Brought to You by Verizon)."] has led me to some conclusions about the only player I see with the potential to become an all-star (Al's D is too wretched):
1) Kevin Love is already a great rebounder. Not only is grabbing 16.3 rebs per 48 minutes (8th in the league). He grabs 3.6 offensive rebounds per game which is 4th in the league (in only 24 mins avg). On occasions when he doesn't get the rebound he is so disruptive to the opposing rebounders that he often causes them to boot the ball out of bounds or back up for grabs.
2) He sucks at getting up and down the floor. Given the way he busts ass on the boards I have to think this is a conditioning problem (as opposed to laziness) that can and should be remedied by making him play as many minutes as possible.
3) He has not figured out how to get his shot up in the paint after offensive rebounds and in post-up attempts. Shouldn't we be seeing if he can face-up from 15' where his passing and jump shooting skills might come into play more? I know I don't want to see him with the ball and his back to the basket trying to score on a 7' guy for a while. Also, if they don't bite on the pump fake kick it out.
4) I have been pleasantly surprised by Love's post D. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that he gets very good position and forces the offensive player just a little out of their comfort zone.
5) Big Al needs to be a real leader and try to encourage the kid. In last night's game Love gave Al a nice pass, putting him in position to make an easy (for him) inside shot. When Al couldn't convert Love battled successfully for the loose ball and gave Al another chance. This time Al made it, but instead of saying "Nice hustle, rook" he just looked pissed and walked by him to the bench. Other times Love is out there looking like he doesn't know where the hell he's supposed to be (both offense and defense) and no one on the court seems to be mentoring him (scowls don't count).
Anyway, these are just the ramblings of a fan (not student) of the game. I'd love to hear everyone else's assessments of Love's game and how/whether to Wolves should go about developing it.
Peter:
That's an interesting point about trying harder on d. This team needs to do something unpredictable and that would definitely be it. It would probably appeal to the Minnesota sports attachment to the "little things" (see the Minnesota Twins). I'd love to see a little badass on that end of the court; some pride and intensity, as it obviously isn't happening on offense.
I'm just interested in seeing how bad this gets. Any clear-headed approach to this squad suggests that they need a new GM. It also suggests that their current expiring assets (Collins + McCants) are worthless and that guys like Miller and Cardinal will be much more valuable the second their 2 year contracts become expiring ones. They can't make any moves because...well, they shouldn't make any moves (leave that for the new GM, not Freddie Iowa, Toronto Ron, and Jesus Jim) but something has to give. They are headed straight into the abyss and an a surprisingly quick fashion.
BTW: At what point does McHale become fireable for his performance as coach? I'd say that if he ends January with less than 9 wins (last year's pace) they need to end the madness and empty the front office along with the coach...if only to show fans that they still care at that point.
What's so cool about watching Lebron is how effortlessly the game comes to him. Dropping 30 plus points comes so naturally to him sometimes you don't even notice he's having a good game until he exucutes a spectacular play or two. His standard game includes literally doing whatever he wants and making it look easy, especially in the fourth quarter.
Cleveland is absolutely a title contender and I'd argue they have a lot better supporting cast then some people realize. Mo and West are both playing very well, they have two upper echelon hustle bangers in Wallace and Varejoa and have maybe the most under-rated big in the league in big Z to go along with the best player in the world. Cleveland-Boston should be an epic series.
As a middle-aged man, I don't generally look to athletes for my role models and heroes, but if I have a sports hero, it is LeBron James. Wow.
As for Miller, I was told by a staffer on the way to my seats that the team worked hardest on two things in practice on Tuesday- weak side help and running plays for Miller. Over the first 15 minutes or so, it was obvious to my son and me that the team was making an effort to create opportunities for Miller. My ten year old even predicted(correctly) that Al's point total would drop some with all the attention Miller received.
Mr. Higgins, I like your assessment of Love. His rebounding and post up D are really solid. I haven't paid as much attention to the upcourt hustle, but others have observed the same. His shots in the paint are a glaring issue. It seems like an area where he has not broken habits or figured out what to do with physically larger and superior opponents. My sense is he needs to shed the finesse shot inside and replace it with more of a direct Rhino-type explosion to the rim. The reverses and dipsy-doodles that got the kids excited last year just don't cut it for him in the NBA.
With respect to wanting it more, that started at the opening tip. My son asked me why the entire Cavs bench was standing from tipoff. We watched and saw that the Cavs bench stands until their teammates on the floor score their first bucket. A little hokey, pehaps, but that sure sends a message and STANDS in sharp contrast to the 4-20 opponents bench sitting.
SnP: I agree that we need some badass on defense, and on our team in general. I was joking with a friend the other day that maybe we could lure Charles Oakley out of retirement if his carwash isn't doing well in the tough economic times. We simply don't have a single "smashmouth" kind of defensive player, and even Brewer, for all his effort, didn't bring that kind of attitude either. On teams I've played on, I found that having a single player with guts and attitude to play defense that way can rub off on his teammates, and that leads to a kind of swagger that we currently don't have. For lack of a better term, our guys play like a bunch of pussies.
I wouldn't be shocked if McHale resigns in January if things don't get better. He has to know he's going to lose his job after the season, and losing by 20 each night can't be fun. (best game show announcer voice) "Jerry Sichting, come on down! Look what you've won! A broken teeaaam!"
As someone pointed out above, Foye has to start playing. He's been utterly passive the past two games, and he looks like he doesn't have any of that "energy" that we drafted him for. He looks listless, and if he doesn't get aggressive then we'd be better off giving his minutes to Bassy.
What is there to say about Shaddy? Most people have witnessed his precipitous decline from last year and no one has an explanation. On his website (http://www.rashadmccants1.com/rashadmccants), where he compares himself to reading the Bible, he says that "Once you open it up and start to read it, you find out things that you've never really seen or heard before. And I think that really describes me." What does this mean? Now that we've "opened him up" by giving him some minutes, is it that we simply find out that there's a new level of basketball incompetence that we weren't previously aware of? Or is there more to the story? At the end of last night's game, when all the fans had already left because LBJ had exited the game, a few of the remaining fans screamed *very loudly* to get Shaddy out of the game. And I actually found myself nodding in agreement with the drunken idiots. It's a sad time for MN basketball.
Jim:
I agree that Cleveland is more than just LeBron right now and that if they can figure out a way to put Wally's expiring deal to good use, they could be trouble.
Over at Hoopus we put together a few stats about the team's backcourt:
http://www.canishoopus.com/2008/12/18/696575/how-low-can-they-go
"What are the reasons for the current state of disarray? I think you can point to two main factors: awful offense and terrible back court play. Let's focus on the guards. Not only were Wolves fans treated to a historically brilliant player in King James, but they were also witness to one of the most inept back court rotations in recent NBA memory.
Plugging in starting point guard Randy Foye's numbers into Basketball Reference's full court machine, he is having a season comparable to the 93/94 campaign of Greg Graham, 99/00 Larry Hughes, 08/09 Acie Law, 69/70 Wayne Chapman, and 98/99 Kendall Gill. These are the top 5 seasons of guards who shot less than 40% from the field, <25% from 3, <5.5 apg, and < 15 ppg.
Moving over to Rashad McCants, Shaddy is currently the only guard in NBA history (with the minimum number of minutes required to qualify for the scoring title) to average less than 35% from the floor, 25.5% from 3, 1 apg, and 10 ppg. He is epically bad. If you extend these numbers to forwards and centers, only a 36 year old Jerome Kersey (98/99), Manute Bol (89/90), and Chuck Hayes (current season) can compete with Shaddy's ineptitude. Each and every single Wolves fan should quickly end any fantasy of Shaddy being traded for anything other than a toaster. He may be the single most ineffective regular in the NBA."
....Wyn also dug up info on the longest losing streak in the NBA:
http://www.canishoopus.com/2008/12/18/696622/checking-in-on-the-record
It's 23 and if the Wolves hit it, it will be on the 13th of Jan at home vs. the Heat. If they hit it, it will be truly remarkable as the stretch of games after the Spurs is their easiest of the year, with games @ NYK, Memphis, GSW, @ Memphis, OKC, Milwaukee, and Miami.
They are also teetering on the edge in some pretty key stat areas: point differential (-14.6 over the last 5; -7.8 overall), OE, DE, SRS (a stat that averages the rank of several key factors), and attendance (currently 27th in the league). How long can they keep this thing going on the status quo? How badly can the team's best player treat his teammates before some bridges are burned? How long can McHale remain on the bench? How can Taylor expect that fans will tolerate anything less than a complete front office overhaul?
Fire everyone now, let Dean Cooper coach it on home and bring in a head hunter like West or Colangelo to hire the new GM and front office staff. They need to have a fully functional front office in place by the draft or they will blow their only good shot at rebuilding. This team needs to be able to put together a sign and trade package as well as brining in a free agent like Ariza, Childress, Nenad Krstic, or Rasho. As bad as things are, they can be good if they can make a sign and trade with a solid player like Butler or Prince, get a solid point in the draft, and sign a single full MLE free agent. I'd be more than happy entering next year with something like this:
1- (Jennings/Holiday)/Foye
2- Brewer/Foye
3- Butler/Gomes/
4- Jefferson/Love
5- Krstic/Jefferson/Love
I think they have enough assets to make something like this happen. I just wonder if they can get to the off season with any of their fans left. I guess they should time the front office firings for late January to keep fans somewhat interested. At least we'll know Taylor still cares if he fires his current crop of clowns and brings in a real professional to right the ship.
re: Kevin Ollie vs. Telfair. Ollie is looking pretty damn good out there. He's not a great shooter but he works on defense and he actually gets to the basket and either finishes or creates contact with regularity. Sadly, he looks better than both Foye and Telfair. He's certainly not the future, however, so why play him? Perhaps it's a reward to the other players on the team, a chance to play with an actual point guard.
re: Foye. I've been a big Randy Foye fan during his tenure as a wolf. I've always had my fingers crossed that he'd turn into more than a solid pro. He's shown flashes of brilliance (especially his rookie season with KG) but those flashes have become distant memories and they seem to occur with much less frequency. How disappointing.
He clearly has some serious limitations. He's not as athletically powerful as more successful players like Rodney Stuckey and this limits his ability to finish at the rim when he gets to the basket. He's not as solid of a shooter as a guy like Mayo, who has problems getting to the basket.
I also wonder if what we see from Foye is his true ceiling or if he's also limited by the Wolves organization.
I see three disturbing possibilities that relate to Foye's actual performance vs. his potential.
1. Bad Draft (it happens) and Foye is just not that good.
Perhaps the Wolves just don't draft well or got unlucky here. The draft is less than an exact science and teams make mistakes all the time. Or perhaps the wolves simply draft poorly.
The continual relative failures of our recent drafts lends credence to this Bad Drafting story. However, there is another explanation.
2. Bad Instruction and Mentoring: Perhaps the wolves brain trust actually drafts fairly well. Sure they make mistakes like most organizations but they've picked up talented players. McCants, Foye, Brewer, Love were all high picks, especially the last three, all top 10 picks and although there was a bit of moaning and groaning during these picks it's not as if upon making those picks that EVERY Basketball mind shouted in unison: How stupid, those players are clearly inferior in every way to players drafted after them or traded for them.
So, do the wolves pick (fairly) well and then just fail to develop players? Perhaps Brewer would be much better if he had been drafted by the Spurs. Perhaps Popovich and the Spurs could have turned Foye into a more serviceable point guard. Perhaps Jerry Sloan and Utah would have turned McCants into Ronnie Brewer.
Most depressingly.
3. Bad Drafts and Bad Instruction. Maybe the Wolves draft inferior players and then provide inferior instruction and mentoring.
At the moment, I'm actually leaning most towards story #2. Not that I think the Wolves draft well, I just think the young guys have more talent than they're able to display.
And finally to end a long post:
I wont' believe that Glen Taylor will actually clean house until I actually see the damn house empty. I expect tweaks, but maybe it will get so bad that he'll have to clean house.
My grandfather used to always wish for Vikings to lose badly during the 1980s and mid-1990s because he thought the organization just plain sucked. Only losing and losing big would actually force them to make large scale changes.
This is now my attitude with the wolves. I hope they crumble because I'm a fan.
Marvelous stuff by everyone, as usual. You don't know how many people who praise my stuff invariably make note of the quality of the commenters soon after. I agree with them. Thanks.
Charles-- My starting five is very stodgy: Collins, Jefferson and Gomes on the front line, Miller and Foye in the backcourt. Love would be first off the bench. I believe in a defensive culture and while I understand the team isn't built that way, you need to get folks like Jefferson and Foye in the habit, which is where Collins should be valuable. I agree with S+P and others that there is also some real potential on the roster for uptempo hoops and would play go-go in the early second and mid-third quarters with a quintet of Telfair, McCants, Carney (a dropoff from Brewer), Smith and Love. Minutes would fluctuate a lot depending on efficiency and matchups, but I don't see how any of those five don't benefit from uptempo play, which also mitigates their lousy D. Meanwhile, the other five are long and should be smart enough to run an effective half-court offense. But I've said all of this when the team's record was 0-0.
Mr. Higgins--The best way to develop Love is the same way you develop any rookie who has enough skill not to be totally embarrassed by regular minutes on the floor: Provide him with a stable, predictable role, and start with simple goals. As mentioned, I'd get Love in both rotations with the classic starting four used now, plus let him run some with the subs. He would know this was happening from game to game. The goals I would set for Love would involve reliability of defensive rotations, and second chance points. Love will never himself be a shutdown defender, but he is capable of being part of a good team defense if schooled early. The second chance points thing would be a way to hone his decision-making after an offensive rebound. I'm already weary of his putback being blocked. Grab the board and--especially if it drew iron for a shot clock reset--get it back outside and wear down the opposing D. As for the transition hustle, seems to me he's been cursed with a pear body-type. Bottom line, the dude has to hustle harder to compensate--he can't lose weight, because he needs it in the low block.
Others-- Agree and appreciate the comments about Cleveland's desire and unity. I am among the minority who admires coach Mike Brown, who I think is very underrated. Also agree with the enforcer angle, to a very limited extent. I don't want this to become hockey goon territory, and to my mind there is a fine but very definite line between quality bangers like Tom Hammonds and two-bit jerks like Gary Trent. I also thoroughly disagree with Charles Barkley's idiotic comments about how the Wolves should have taken Melo down during his third quarter blowout last week. Barkley obviously didn't see the game, so doesn't know how Melo got his points. If he's arguing for a cheap shot during a long jumper or a trip back down the court, well, that just puts a dirty sheen on Barkley's idiocy. On the other hand, when Bobby Brown was revving up to throw down a slam dunk in the waning moments of the Sacramento game this week with the Kings already up a bunch, you're damn right I was glad to see Brian Cardinal introduce him to the floor via a hard but legal foul.
Love not only looks overmatched on the block against bigger and Taller opponents, he also does not know how to take advantage when he has a smaller opponent guarding him on the block. He went a portion of the first half on the court where Wally drew the defensive assignment of Love. On Love's first chance to exploit this opportunity, he got the ball on the block and then quickly passed it out. After that, no one recognized this as an obvious mismatch. You got the feeling that Love didn't want to have the offense run through him even though he had the mismatch. He's a nice player, but he has to develop a little more attitude and recognize when he can be the man out there if opposing defenses don't respect him by guarding him with bigger and taller players.
SnP-
I've noticed that you've called for an Ariza signing a couple times recently. I need to see more of Trevor (and almost surely will, in April and May) but he sort of reeks of a guy who is going to get overpaid in the off-season. Is he any better than Brewer? He hits shots when LA is pouring it on, but I'm not sure he's a reliable shooter when you need him to be. Again, I'll form a better opinion on him when I start watching most Laker playoff games. But--it seems like role players on good teams get overpaid, and any new Wolves GM will have to be careful not to cripple our cap situation. It's one of the only things going for us.
How about we cut the losses and wasted time and let Papa Pup sell the lowliest attraction in carnival athletics to whomever he can - provided $10 million goes to JPODS?
Britt, the one question on my mind after this game was what's going on with Telfair when the rest of the team is equally horrible from the outside (1 of 14 on 3s) and the replacement PG had 2 assists? McHale nicely avoided your question about why Telfair is getting so few minutes. The question needs to be why he isn't playing Ollie's minutes with Ollie sharing undevelopable space with Cardinal and Collins.
It seems McHale after 3-4 games has descended into the Wittman win-at-any-cost approach to save my sorry job. Another reason why the Sadpups need Sam Mitchell to coach.
2 other questions that popped up from your commentary:
- If +/- is so big, why aren't you counting Foye as a "blessing"? His +/- was -4, 2nd only to Gomes 0.
- Maybe it's the staticians or $1/hour Chinese data entry, but I also find it odd that the +/- stats don't match in sum, average, or peak with the final score differential. Is there an explanation for this somewhere?
I suspect the reason that Ollie is getting playing time over Telfair has already been suggested - he runs the plays. Young players who are simply given minutes don't develop - they have to play the game right or that playing time actually works against them. Without a few players on the floor with a clue, the whole team suffers. Unfortunately the wolves have very few options when it comes to putting in players who have an idea of what to do out there and an ability to do it.
Britt,
Thanks for responding, especially since you'd already addressed the issue and I'd missed it.
Will Lose for JPODS,
concerning +/-
consider a simple example:
Three players play in a game: Foye, Miller, and Love.
Only two can play at a time.
Stint 1: Foye & Miller
Score during stint: Wolves (10) Celtics (20)
Stint 2: Foye & Love
Score during stint: Wolves (20) Celtics (15)
Stint 3: Miller & Love
Score during stint: Wolves (15) Celtics (20)
Final Score: Wolves 45 Celtics 55
Now calculate the +/- figures.
Foye: -5
Miller: -15
Love: 0
The plus minus does not add up to the total differential nor does the average appear meaningful.
I haven't thought about this deeply. Perhaps others will discover some of the mathematical laws of plus-minus scores.
Andy G:
The Wolves are getting obliterated at the 1 and 3. They are the two most pressing needs on this squad and I think they need to target one of the following players this off season and bring him in: Trevor Ariza, Josh Childress, Caron Butler, Tayshaun Prince. Butler and Prince are 2010 free agents and would require a sign and trade. Childress and Ariza are free agent options that could likely be brought in under what Prince and Butler would command with max deals.
Ariza is young (23) and improving with each season. He is a defensive stud and an all around excellent athlete. If you plug in his numbers into full court press at Basketball Reference, you get some nice comparisons for 23 year old forwards with an above 16 PER, >1.5 spg, comparable rebound rate, and ppg. He'll probably be overpaid but so will anyone the Wolves get in here to play.
Ultimately, I think the Wolves need to take the following approach: Jennings, Rubio or Holiday with their top pick. I they can only get them with where they end up in the lotto, fine, but if they can move down to Washington, Sacramento, Golden State, OKC, or LAC, I think they talk sign and trade or just straight up trade (with Big Al, Miller, and the Heat pick) for guys like Andris Biedrins, Kevin Martin, Caron Butler, or duos like Kaman/Gordon. Ideally, I think they find a 5 or a 2 with a trade and they go for Ariza/Childress at the 3 in free agency while being able to draft a 1 in Jennings or Holiday. For instance, if they ended up with the #2 pick and Sacramento was in a spot where they could land Jennings or Holiday, I think you offer them Jefferson, Harden, and the Heat pick for Kevin Martin. You then go for Ariza or Childress and walk away with Jennings, Martin and Ariza before throwing Miller + Cardinal + whatever else you can for a serviceable center.
Geez all the props for slow footed Love.
The guy can rebound in the league, that is it. He is not athletic enough to score in the paint. Hence the frequent times his shot is blocked.
Anyone here still thinking the trade was good?
I know I said it was bad from the get go.
And no his defense is not good. He can man up like Madsen and get position, but outside of that he is lost. He does not makes switches or transitions well, seems like he is unaware a lot of times. When you put him out on the arc to defend, better watch out because someone will be wide open in the post off of him.
Time to admit McHale has made a huge mess with this team. The sooner he is no longer one of the big three making decisions the better.
Rob
I was at the game last night, and maybe I'm a hopeless homer, but I had a hard time watching LeBron tear apart my home team while the crowd ooohed and ahhed. He’s clearly a gifted player (how’s that for an understatement), but it was a little less enjoyable for me to watch when my team was playing with such low energy.
The play that stood out to me last night was at some point during the second quarter when the Wolves turned it over just past half court and all of a sudden Cleveland is going the other way 3-0 on a fast break. Then Delonte West tried to set up Lebron on an off-the-backboard dunk. It was muffed and I think Gomes got back in time to at least somewhat contest the putback. Call me Wittman, but I found it to be totally embarrassing that the Wolves would allow a visiting team to do that sort of stuff in their own gym. I'm not calling for hooliganism, but one would think that pride should have kicked in and lit a little fire in the belly to turn up the defensive intensity after being humiliated by a visiting team that was obviously very comfortable showing off on your home floor. Instead, the Wolves continued to sleepwalk and Cavs continued on something like an 8-0 run to push it to an 11-point lead at the time. The Cavs were clearly comfortable all night long, and it wasn't any surprise that they had built a nice rhythm hitting shots from wherever they liked to put the Wolves away in the 4th. Until the Wolves find a way to make teams a little uncomfortable on offense these kind of 2nd-half collapses will continue.
Anyway, I love your work, Britt, and cheers to all of the great commentators that contribute to the site. Let's hope the Wolves find a way to turn this thing around.
SnP-
Again, I'll gladly be proven wrong, since I'll be cheering for LA in the playoffs, but I doubt Ariza is noticeably better than Gomes or Brewer. He plays on a stacked team and his energy and athleticism are actually noticed in big wins--whereas Brewer's lack of polish is noticed here in big losses.
I would love Caron Butler. He's on a much different level than Ariza and Childress.
I'll take issue with the idea that Telfair doesn't run the plays. He ran plays all last season and was very capable running the offense. I
t's great that Ollie made some layups the last two blowouts but he had two assists in 26 minutes and hasn't had more than four dimes in any game yet this season. Look. The Wolves aren't winning with Ollie or Foye on point and haven't really given Bassy much of a shot this year.
The reason he's not getting minutes is he's in a huge shooting slump, which won't change unless he's given an opportunity. How many 0-8, 3 TO games is Shaddy allowed? Unlike McCants or Foye, McHale can tuck Bassy away without losing face. With Bassy, yeah, he signed him for three years. But the $2.5M is chump change in the grand scheme of things.
Fear not guys. The Wolves playing this bad is actually a good thing. The quicker we hit rock bottom (and we are HURTLING towards that point), the quicker Glen Taylor's weak mind will come to the conclusion we have been fully aware of for a long time...this team is not salvageable and needs a thorough management, coaching, and personnel cleansing.
The only pressing need is trading Jefferson immediately. The rest of the league is quickly catching on to his numerous deficiencies, and it may just be a matter of time before he is considered a bad contract. Never mind receiving pennies on the dollar in a hasty trade. His stock will plunge to even fewer pennies on the dollar when this team finishes with 15 wins.
Ditto Mike Miller, although there is less urgency. Just find a competing team that is willing to make a short-sighted move for a veteran shooter in the playoffs. There will be a few at the deadline.
I say there is less urgency because the rest of the league knows that Mike Miller is only a slightly better than average player (and only because of his shooting). There's only one GM in the league who would overpay for him, and he is now our coach :)
Call me King Will Lose. I figured out that +/- math.
sum of players +/- divided by players on floor
For the Howlers:
-115/5 = -23
Celtics-Hawks:
15/5 = 3
Bulls-Clips:
30/5 = 6
Nate's example:
-20/2 = -10
For the curious, using time played percentages times +/- didn't work. For the +/- to have any real use, you'll need to compare it vs. the team average, which is not the same as the final score difference.
SFJ-
Totally agree about Bassy. It really sucks that Ollie is taking his minutes. I enjoy watching Telfair play, even on his bad shooting nights. Brewer is the only other guy I can say that about. And Ollie makes really dumb turnovers as well, like the one he threw right into Delonte West's hands in the 4th Quarter, last night.
Those wishing we'd trade Jefferson:
This team would be a whole new level of bad if you trade Jefferson in another "blow it up" move like the one we got him in. In tough games, he's our only potent scorer. Without him last night, we lose by 35, instead of 23. If you think the ball-movement and confidence of the other guys is going to improve without Jefferson holding the ball, I'll just have to disagree. Is Foye going to step up and lead the team? Is Miller going to hit MORE shots without a post scorer to draw double teams? What good is going to happen when you take out your only consistent scorer that isn't a 6'6" 300 lb Rhino?
We're right in the thick of a rebuilding project and learning how not-fun it can be. Jefferson is the only guy on the roster that has youth and significant ability. Why you would want to give that up--and take ANOTHER HUGE STEP BACK--is beyond me. We aren't going to roll two or three lottery picks out there, next year, and look good. We'll look awful. One good lottery pick and the current group will look improved--UNLESS, we make another stupid trade. That is where a new front office is needed--and not a major panic decision like giving someone else a borderline All-Star player that is just hitting his prime.
TBR - I was also a bit embarrassed by the crowd, but I suppose that's the price we pay for playing such poor basketball recently. But yes, I would have liked to see some pushback by our squad, rather than rolling over at the end. Props to Rashad for being the only defensive player insane enough to challenge LBJ, though obviously he's playing the worst ball of his career right now.
Second, I think the Wolves really missed Big Z out there. Not only did Cleveland not worry about getting their center the ball, but Wallace and Varejao are both the sort of players that are going to give Love fits until he figures them out. Wallace is still strong and a former defensive player of the year, while Varejao has a nose for the ball, swiping hands and quick hops.
Like the Suns of a few years past, Lebron creates enough shooting space to make his teammates that much better. Not only that, but he is intimidating enough to deter opponents from driving the lane, even if they have a slow-footed Wally guarding them.
Last point - while I agree that Al should've taken more shots last night, the Wolves could simply not counter what Cleveland was doing on defense. Several times I noticed we'd throw him an entry pass from the wing, and a weakside defender would do what I call a half-assed doubleteam, coming over to show, but not close enough to actually touch Al. I can't figure out why we aren't diving cutters down the lane - either no one thinks Al can can/will make the pass, or no one wants to take it up into Lebron and Varejao. Granted it was usually a bad angle for Al (he'd catch it maybe 5-7 feet off the block, up the baseline, not the elbow, which is a better angle), but it was certainly a clever ploy that exploited Al's inability to read a defense.
Also: did I miss the conversation about McHale complaining about the influence of bloggers? I can't believe he didn't mention the commenters! Is this more damning proof regarding his ability to assess talent? I'll have to check the other threads or something...
I agree with Andy G.: unless you get a good offer, and I mean a GOOD offer, you don't move Jefferson. It almost sounds absurd to say it, but I agree that he's perhaps the only reason why we've had many games (especially earlier in the season) that weren't blowouts. He gets so many tough hoops, and he has the best post game in the NBA. You don't give that away for bit players or a couple of draft picks.
I'm not saying he's untouchable, but trading Jefferson in haste would mean anointing Love as the go-to option in the pain (and we've all seen how well he does down there) and asking everyone to step up their games. Personally, I think Foye, Miller, and Shaddy might regress even further without a star like Jefferson on their side, as none is talented enough to carry a team without the defense's attention diverted to our horse in the middle.
Jefferson's averaging 21 and 10. He's sixth in the league in blocks. I'll go so far as to claim that people's perceptions of his defensive ineptitude are overblown. If you want to see a bad low post defender, check out Amare. Or Boozer. There just aren't that many great defenders at the 4, maybe because there are so many talented offensive players at that position (hat tip to Andy G for pointing that out). He's starting to get the hang out of passing out of double teams, which he did very well last night, but his teammates couldn't make the open shots he created for them. Most important, he's only 23. He wont' be hitting his prime for a few more years. Give the guy a break, and think about how ugly it would be to subtract Al and run full-time with Kevin Love at that position, who can't score or block shots nearly as well as Love can. It'd be a nightmare, in my opinion.
They key to rebuilding this thing isn't to blow it up by trading Al, it's to find the right guys to put around him, some of whom might end up being better than him. I fully believe that Mayo was that kind of player, as he excels in the half court, just as Al does. I haven't seen James Harden yet, but it sounds like he might be another top player who would fit in with what we have and could potentially be a first option or a potent second option. You also trade bit players for draft picks, expiring contracts, and upper-tier players like Caron Butler or Gerald Wallace and commit to putting them beside Al. We need to accumulate talent on this team. We have the least amount of talent in the NBA as it is, and if we traded Al, that gap would get even bigger.
Sorry for the typos in that last rant. I was typing quickly and furiously.
Playing the Devil's Advocate, what is the whole other level of bad below what they currently have with Jefferson on the roster? 2 wins? They should probably be there anyway. I think you try and keep him and surround him with guys like Shogun mentioned but I also think you need to be prepared to move him for value if the situation presents itself. I personally don't think *any* moves should be made with the current front office still in place, but if they bring in a new GM and he has a different idea of where to go, what would be considered value for Big Al? I don't think it's as much as we'd like to believe it is. Again, speaking personally, I'd accept Kaman/Gordon/return of Marko pick or Kevin Martin.
Al is a solid, solid player. He's the best player on this team. However, this team has 4 wins and it looks worse than last year's 22 win squad. It has an awful front office and not much else. Without Al, they are what exactly? The Thunder? They should have lost twice to that team *with Al*. There's not much more room to fall and I don't think anyone on this club should be considered a "must have" at this point. However, before anything is done, they need a new front office. They need it soon so that the new GM can get his team in place before the draft.
Here's hoping they can get a new GM, he comes in before the draft, and can figure out a way to surround Al with upper-tier help. I'd really like that to happen but I don't think Al is above trade talk with a new GM in place.
Whats up all. Haven't posted in awhile because I was scared at what I might say, but no more.
From where I sit, Section 124 row Z seats 22 and 23, this team is hopeless. From Rashad "I'm like the Bible" McCants to Al "Worst Team Mate on the Planet" Jefferson on up to Glen Taylor, there is a total delusion as to everyone's own worth. Yea, Al is a prolific low post scorer and rebounder who is top 6 in blocks. And, yes, he is only 23 and has more room to grow, but somethings should just come natural and are more important than getting stats. Things like being a good teammate and taking accountability for ones own actions. Al plays for himself first and the team second and it is very obvious in his mannerisms and actions towards his teammates. No "dap" after made free throws, no helping players up off the floor, no acknowledgment of a good pass, no communication on D (how pissed does everyone here get playing pickup ball when your teammates don't call out a pick and you get blindsided by some big dude? How hard do you fight through that pick the next time down?).
The more I watch, the more I hate Al Jefferson. He is a flow killer, a terrible help defender (I'll give you the 1v1 arguement due to the amount of talent at the PF position these days, but team defense is about understanding, spacing and discipline, 3 things which Al lacks), a bad teammate and boring interview. I'm convinced he is a number chaser and nothing more. The rest of the team gets bogged down trying to get Al the ball and then get out of his way. It takes the rest of the team out of the game and no one else ever finds a rhythm or flow.
Al is, at best, a 2nd or 3rd option on a Championship team because he lacks all the intangibles that make people leaders and, eventually, winners.
I attended a coaching seminar recently and a story used there fits this team to the T:
A coach is speaking to his team of boys. He explains that certain things need to happen for the team to be successful and if "you" would work on them, we will get results. Each boy leaves the meeting assuming the coach was speaking about them and they go to work to better themselves, and thus, the team succeeds.
A second coach is speaking to his team of boys. He explains to the boys that certain things need to happen for the team to be successful and if "you" would work on them, we will get results. Each boy leaves the meeting assuming the coach is speaking about someone else and they don't work on anything and the team gets worse.
The Wolves fall in the second category, they assume someone else on the team needs the work, not them. Until this changes, nothing else will.
This team reminds me of the Island of Misfit Toys; no one remembers why the toys were made or how to play with them.
The key here is getting a new front office in place well before the draft and hopefully before the end of the season so they can survey the wreckage first hand.
Taylor needs to reach out to Stern and ask for help finding an extremely experienced, retired professional NBA mind he can pay as a consultant to help select a new General Manager. From there, get out of the way and let the new boss select his assistants, scouts and coaching staff. Anything short of that and the Wolves will continue to have no credibility.
This team reminds me of the Island of Misfit Toys; no one remembers why the toys were made or how to play with them.
Nice. That is a very good description of the current roster of Timberwolves. Its an island of misfit basketball players.
Each player looks something like a player, but upon closer inspection there is something glaringly wrong about him.
About the only thing a Wolves fan can do now is accept what we have. A roster of misfits that are not going to win or get much better. Can we find something lovable about them anyway? Give them a home?
I am starting to watch games expectign a collapse, but actually saying nice things like, "that a way Shaddy, you scored, good job." Or, "its okay Al, you can do better next time." "Good Hustle Kevin, don't hang your head." Its like watching my son play t-ball.
Minneapleseed: I'm glad someone else has noticed the not-calling-out-screens thing. Gomes and Love were abosolutely blown up on screens in the last few games that Al didn't call out. Love was blown up right before he didn't hustle back on the open layup that turned into a missed ally-oop last night. It would be interesting to know just how much some of this stuff if playing inside the locker room. It's hard for us to say but there are some troubling things that you can pick up on that you see, as you mention, coaching at much lower levels.
No doubt, SnP. Those types of things are team killers and I worry that the habits are getting so ingrained that they won't/can't be broken.
Apparently, members of the Wild were in attendance for the Celtics game. When asked what was most impressive about the boys in green, the Wild players response was "communication." The quote went something like, "they are always talking to each other on defense, on offense, on the bench."
Take notes, Wolves...
I was on the trade Al bandwagon, but I've been reading some very good reasons not to. Perhaps the most effective move to make would be to cut losses with Foye and send him to the highest bidder.
Al, Love and Brewer seem like the only long-term pieces. Each does at least one thing exceptionally well on the offensive end. Al is a low-post monster, Love is a rebounding savant, Brewer is an elite quality defender. Not saying any of these guys, except Al, are surefire starters on a great team, but all bring an elite-level skill.
Gomes, Smith, Miller and Foye are perfect trade fodder. They are nice players and will have long productive careers, but none are superstars and none have any skills that would be considered exceptional. Therefore they can be moved easily for value.
Foye is very similar to Delonte West -- a nice combo-guard, who can be part of a championship team, but nothing to build around. The FO made a mistake with him. It's time to write down the loss and move on.
Bassy won't bring much in return right now. But he's 23 and has elite-level pure PG skills. So you're better off keeping him around for two or three years and seeing if he can become even a mediocre shooter/finisher. if he does, you've got a pretty good PG.
Rebuilding teams are better off with picks while playoff teams are better off brining in proven rotation-caliber players. Identify the real keepers and then harvest the most value you can out of those who are good but easily replaceable.
This team needs a net infusion of talent and the only surefire way to make that happen is to stockpile first-round draft picks to increase the odds of getting that second and third stud (Pecovic maybe one of them). The point is this team botched
Yo! what up? This forum is the reason I am still a Wolves fan. Makes it interesting even when we are losing so much and not at all fun to watch. Mr Taylor needs to realize that we , the paying customers,need to be entertained. Last night was a perfect example. LeBron made the game fun to watch. The WOlves in the current state are not even close.
Anyway....I agree that the front office needs to go before any trades are made.
I think a very good PG will make all the difference.
Is Flip coming back?? And if so...is that the best person for the job??? Did he not contribute to the current mess??
DRINKING UPDATE: I only needed 3 beers and 1 vodka double last night while watching the game. So....thats an improvement.
Can you sue Taylor and McHale for this? False advertising or something? "They said they had a basketball team for me to watch - they'z lied!"
If you give Bassy the minutes, the shooting will come. That's from a movie. But how do you expect Bassy to grow as a player and a shooter, to gain the confidence needed to play that game, on the bench?
The 23-year-old PG who just signed a 2-year contract isn't playing for a team going nowhere.
Log-ic?
And Kevin Love is Reggie Evans & Al Jefferson is Derrick Coleman. References, for the win.
Minneapleseed: I remembered the Love screen coming before him not hustling back because J-Pete made a point of singling out Love for benching (he should have been...you have to hustle back) but missed an equally BS anti-team move: the lack of Al calling out for a pick. Later in the game, Al called out "high" for a pick on Ollie beyond the 3 point line and then failed to show quickly enough with the help and was way out of position even though he made the correct communication. There were a couple of other times that communication seemed out of whack but was hard to tell on account of it being on TV....however, the way the players reacted, you knew something was up.
I coached a 7th grade squad with a kid who was a fantastic talent. However, he had your typical 7th grade weaknesses and his mouth often cashed checks with his teammates that even his talent couldn't quite pay...especially in terms of his handle (didn't dribble low enough for solid penetration and was frequently stripped; couldn't keep the dribble below his knees when changing directions), perimeter stance (too high; he stood straight up), and his over-reliance on relatively decent hops to make up for being out of position on defense (this hurt him on rebounding too). I wonder if there is anything going on with Al and his team mates along these lines. He's the best player on the team but he also has some fairly obvious weaknesses. I wonder how consistent the coaching staff is with him vis-a-vis the other players and if that creates some resentment amongst his "lessers".
If McHale is back after this decent to perdition, I'll block all reference to the Timberwolves I can manage. This is hhhhhhorible. To read that McCants was rehabilitated when Witman left, because he's McHales first "REAL" draft choice after the Joe Smith sanctions were lifted. YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS UP. This team really reminds me of the Jimmy Breslin book, "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" without the laughs, or the lion in the cellar.
Kevin Ollie....are you serious? I can see how he's helping rebuild. How long can you rebuild? As Ben Franklin said, "If you fail to plan you are planning to fail." Where's the plan? McHale saying "we're sticking to the plan." is less than comforting. In Japan I think Glen or someone would be expected to perform seppuku? COME ON! At least that would be a memorable half time distraction from the mess the charge people to see. UGH. It's gotten to the point Tom Hanneman's voice makes me twitch.
I've been mulling over a move for Kaman, an idea that is really growing on me and seems given discussions league-wide to be within the realm of possibility. I'm struggling, however, to visualize what it would take to pry him loose from LA. Any one have a sense if that is (a) possible or (b) on the front office radar here? We could certainly do worse in finding a third big for rotations.
Can anyone legitimately argue any of Minneappleseed's negative points on Jefferson?
I almost don't want to talk about this stuff publicly for fear that some other GM may come across this blog...but it's all SO true.
The best reason you guys have come up with not to trade him is that Jefferson is a good scorer and keeps the losses closer. My god, what a defeatist attitude. Have we really been beaten into the ground this hard?
Guys, rock bottom is in sight. If Jefferson was 1/10 of the player you think he is we should have at least twice as many wins at this point.
Jefferson is a selfish player, a chemistry killer, a god-awful defender, an unwilling and unskilled passer, and on the verge of being widely viewed as overpaid. His substantial low post scoring skills do not and will not outweigh his negatives- ever.
We likely will have an opportunity to to trade him this year and get some good assets back in return. But the window will not be there for long.
Just wanted to add my kudos for the commenters.
I am struck by the notion that we as Wolves' fans are also in transition. For over a decade, we knew the team would have the incomparable Kevin Garnett and it was all about what would be done about building on that solid cornerstone. Now, the team really has nothing but McHale's Misfit Toys (kudos to APB). It's simply going to be that way for some time to come. We are just going to have to deal with it.
"Blow up" the current roster? The Wolves are at least five players away from being competitive. And despite the Kool-Aid served by the organization, there is not a single player in town worthy of building a team around. Proposed trades for this one player, or that one, won't improve the Wolves. It's going to take a lot of trades and acquisitions and some unusual vision.
Personally, I hold the fervent hope that Glen Taylor will take the necessary steps to reinvent -- not rebuild -- the Timberwolves. I have the impression though, that he is not the man for the job and should probably cash in his NBA chips.
SnP, Minneapleseed, Yuck:
I'll respond to some of the Jefferson questions and criticisms.
- What is the whole other level of bad below our current position? -- It's heading into next season without a single star player on our roster. Right now, we have one. That's not enough to win games, as Caron Butler is finding out, and Dwayne Wade found out, last year.
- Al Jefferson is a "flow killer" -- well, then--I guess so was Olajuwon and so is Duncan. He's not a high post passer, like Chris Webber or something--he's a low block scorer. The ball comes inside and he tries to score. If doubled, he kicks it out to guys who are supposed to make shots. From today's Strib article: "Jefferson is doing his job in the post by taking up space and finding teammates on the perimeter. The open shots, however, are not falling." Well put.
- Al Jefferson is a "bad teammate and a boring interview." -- The interview part is irrelevant, obviously. I would have loved to have Tim Duncan winning titles and boring us to death for the last dozen years. The bad teammate part is a better criticism. Early in the year, he went overboard yelling at Foye. Anyone would hate to play with that--especially when Foye is older than him. He has toned it down, somewhat, since. In a pre-season radio interview McCants listed Jefferson as the "funniest" guy on the team. Something tells me Al is not a bad guy or doing anything the ruin the locker room. You could take a lot of the game's great players and stick them on a 4-21 team and see what happens. KG and MJ would punch people, Kobe would get sarcastic as hell, etc. Yes, those guys are good enough to avoid a 4-21 record, but that's not the point you're making when calling Jefferson a bad teammate.
- "The best reason you guys have come up with not to trade him is that Jefferson is a good scorer and keeps the losses closer." -- that's actually not true. The best reasons are that he's a young, dominant scorer and our team's best player by a mile. Also, we're headed to the top of the lottery WITH him, so we gain literally NOTHING by shipping him out on a discount. With the KG trade, we at least moved up from around Joe Alexander territory to the OJ Mayo slot in the draft. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=thorpe_david&page=Rookies-081217 -- ugh.
Levi,
I don't think your comment was directed at my "trade Al" plea, but I wholeheartedly agree. We are a lot of moves away from even approaching minor respectability.
I do think that trading Jefferson is an important first step though:
1) His trade value is going to fall off a cliff (as previously stated)
2)The "pound it in to Al system" has retarded the growth of the rest of the team offensively.
3)Likewise his inability to defend has magnified the defensive shortcomings of the other players. I don't think the other guys are nearly as bad defensively as they seem. But Al gives away easy hoops to the worst big men in the league and plays zero help defense.
Bottom line: We won't know what we have with these other players until he is gone. My hunch (hope!) is more than we currently think.
No offense, but why would the Wolves be interested in Kevin Martin? He's putting up numbers on a bad team. Giving up the low post scoring of Al for slight of build 2-guard is beyond me. We just drafted a better version of Martin in Mayo and traded him. I think we could find someone like him in the draft. I agree with Shogun: Al is 23 and only going to get better. Granted, he shouldn't be playing center, but getting a center and moving Al over to his natural position makes a hell of lot more sense, than trying to find a replacement 4 that will average 20/10. If history tells us anything is that the Wolves need to attempt to properly build around their best player. Can you imagine Al on Cleveland, Orlando, or any other upper echelon team in need of a 4? This is not the solution.
Andy,
We obviously have a fundamental disagreement on Jefferson's worth. From where I sit, it is completely ridiculous to mention him in the same sentence with Duncan, Hakeem, Wade, Kobe, or Butler...even within the context of an indirect comparison.
Those guys are true stars. Two way players with a multitude of skills who will their teams to win regardless of the situation.
I always go back to an interview with Al last year where he was talking about the time he scored 60pts (or some ridiculous number like that) in a high school game. Then he casually mentioned that they lost that game. That is Al in a nutshell. He always gets his buckets and his teams always suck.
As for his "youth". He already moves like he is in his late 30s. I don't seem him getting physically better with age. I also don't see him changing his attitude, especially after the Wolves handed him the "face of the franchise" title, which he clearly did not deserve.
Remember, Zach Randolph and Derick Coleman were once viewed as young, budding superstars too. I put Al in that camp. The more you watch him, the less you like him.
Yes, it is a fundamental disagreement. From where I'm sitting, I see these things going on with the Wolves:
1) Not a single player on the roster can consistently attack the basket. It's laughable that Mike Miller is probably our best penetrator. Getting rid of our low post scorer would mean that we now have no penetration or low-block scoring. To me, that is a bad move for a team that also struggles on defense.
2) Every player in the current rotation is an average or worse defensive player. In my opinion, Jefferson is somewhere in the middle of the pack (of this team). He's better than Rhino, McCants, Miller and Foye, but worse than Brewer, Love, Telfair and Gomes.
3) The only player capable of making nice assists to Jefferson--Bassy Telfair--is riding the pine. Ollie is simply incapable of creating, and Foye is just plain confused when he's not filling it up with jumpers. Still, Al produces at a high percentage.
4) Jefferson is the most consistent player on the team. Almost every night, you're getting 20 & 10 with 50% shooting and average or slightly worse defense. He'll score more than he gives up in about 80-90% of the games. He'll also kick out a handful of would-be dimes to guys that shot 40+% from downtown as recently as last year. More than anything, when I watch this team I say "It's a good thing we have Jefferson..."
I agree with Andy G that Al Jefferson is the one player on this team worth keeping, but I also agree with S-n-P that you should consider trading him if the right offer came along.
I think its ridiculous to say that McCants, Foye, Gomes, Smith, Love, Telfair and the rest of the roster will suddenly look better once Al Jefferson is gone as Yuck suggests. Al has his liabilities on the defensive end and there is no evidence he makes his teammates better. He probably is not the cornerstone of the franchise that the WOlves build around. He is the one player worth going to see each night, though. 20 and 10 is no small feat. Although, right now, he is closer to Randolph and Coleman than Duncan and KG. But he is still young enough to change that if he ever gets surrounded by another all star or two. OJ Mayo could have been one of those players and Andy G has been skeptical of the draft day trade from the beginning. I don't think there are many people left who don't agree with him now though. The wolves would have more wins right now and Jefferson would look a lot better if he had Mayo as his teammate. It certainly is not unrealistic to hope that a new GM can find some better talent with upcoming draft picks and free agent signings to place around Al.
As I argued above, I'm in the Andy G/APB camp on the Jefferson issue. NBA contenders are built around a core of star players who are complemented by "glue guys"/role players. Most NBA title teams have three top tier players. If you've got a Jordan type on your team, it can be done with two. Right now, we have one player (Jefferson) who COULD be one of those players, and we have a few glue guys/role players (Brewer, Love, Gomes, maybe Foye) who could be helpful if we can get one or two more legitimate stars. The stars have to be guys who can play well together. For example, even though the Wiz have had three very good players (Arenas, Butler, and Jameson) for a long time, they just don't complement each other very well. Ditto AI & Melo. What we should be doing is trying to figure out what kind of star would gel with the "star in the making" we've already got. Andy G. has suggested that Mayo would've been that kind of guy since he excels in the half court. Is James Harden that kind of player? Maybe. Is Blake Griffin? I don't think so, simply because he'd be redundant with Jefferson, just as Love is. Is Rubio? I don't know. I think they'd look about as good as Nash & Shaq have looked together. Jennings? Evans? We need to take this into account as we're drafting. This draft, in which we have four first rounders, might be our last chance to improve by leaps and bounds. McHale should not be allowed near the phones if he is still associated with the team. And by then, we should've hired a proven talent evaluator who has done well elsewhere. Otherwise, we could miss yet another opportunity, like we did with Granger, Roy, and Mayo.
Re: a rebuilding model. What about the 1990s Houston Rockets? The "star" Al is most like is Hakeem Olajuwon. Each had/has the best low block games in the NBA of their era, and both are good shot blockers. If I remember correctly, the Rockets took off (pun intended) when they surrounded Dream with Drexler (who wasn't in his prime), Elie, and Kenny Smith. All of those guys could play D and make threes. They had a coach who made sure that they spaced the floor properly and rotated the ball quickly around the perimeter before the defense could make it's rotations. No one stopped the ball like Shaddy does. I don't recall anyone doing a lot of dribble penetration on those teams, as that would've ruined the spacing that Hakeem needed to score. I'm obviously thinking "aloud" here, but I think we need some kind of vision for the kind of players we need around Jefferson and the kind of system we need to put in place to succeed. The Rockets model might be the most useful analogy.
APB,
I said it was a hunch (hope) that we would see some individual improvement in the rest of the team if Al were gone.
It's, of course, impossible to know this for certain. But one scrap of evidence I would throw out is that Big Al was a -6.7 for all of last season based on the +/- stats. That tied Bassy for the team worst.
Other big minute guys were: Gomes (-3.2), Smith (-3.0), Brewer (-4.0), Foye (-3.7), McCants (-1.6).
Agree or disagree, but I don't know if you can say that my hope (hunch) is "ridiculous".
And based on this data, I don't know if you can say that Al scores more than he gives up 80-90% of the time. The numbers suggest otherwise.
Yuck: You're talking tactics, we're talking strategy. Just as you can't know that Foye and Miller wouldn't be better without Jefferson (as you claim), you also can't claim that adding a legitimate second star who could play well with Jefferson wouldn't change everyone's perception of Jefferson, as well as lead to a lot of wins. We're basically saying that when you have the best post player since Hakeem Olajuwon - a potential star - the strategy shouldn't be to trade the star away UNLESS you can get another star who fits into your strategic vision better. The strategy should be to draft a star who can play with your star in the making. That requires scouting and competence, things McHale has never had, but a new GM might. Given that we have four first round picks and limited tradable assets (at least they're limited to the extent that we couldn't turn them into a star like Boston did two years ago), I think you have to keep Jefferson and draft the appropriate players.
I understand that you don't accept that Jefferson could be the kind of star who can carry a team, and that's a fundamental disagreement between us. But given the lack of appealing alternatives, I think you cross your fingers that he is and then draft the best possible guys to put around him.
Cross your fingers and hope that Jefferson is a star in the making? In spite of the statistical and visual evidence that he is not?
Sorry, but that sounds McHale-ian to me.
Do you think Hakeem ever had a season where his +/- stats were below the overall team average, much less the absolute worst on the team?
I mean seriously, you are comparing Al Jefferson to Hakeem? I don't even know how to reply.
At the risk of sounding like a condescending a-hole, you need to put down the cup and back away from the Kool-Aid stand.
Really, no offense, these arguments are all in good fun. But...you're talking crazy.
Yuck,
Also, no offense, but the idea that Jefferson is "the problem" on this team is possibly the craziest one this board has seen all season.
Who do you think we could bring back in a trade that would net us a better team going forward?
To be honest, I don't know what we could get for Jefferson. My guess is a lot less than we could have gotten last season, or even a couple of months ago. But a lot more than we could get if we wait until next year.
My hope would be a pick, an expiring contract, and a promising young player who is redundant on his current team.
That, or a young second tier star who may be unhappy/not fitting with his current team.
You probably feel that this would be peanuts, since we are miles apart on Al's value.
We're not getting a superstar. Jefferson has been exposed enough to rule that out.
Yuck: I don't want to push this point too far because I was making a qualitative statement about Al's low post skills being like Hakeem's and arguing that the "type" of player he most resembles (especially on offense) is Hakeem, but take a look at the stats in their age 23 and 24 seasons: Hakeem's and Al J.'s numbers aren't *that* different. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Hakeem is better - hell, he's the best center I've ever seen (I'm only 28 so I didn't get to see Jabbar et al in their primes) - but Jefferson isn't a throw away player.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jeffeal01.html
Yuck
No offense intended with my "ridiculous" statement. I don't agree with you, but I don't mean to imply that your yourself are ridiculous. I certainly have been guilty of making "ridiculous statements on this board in the past. You bring up a good point with the +/- statistic, but I've often thought and stated so in the past, that the +/- statistic is a flawed stat in many cases. It provides some insight into a players contributions, but you need much more insight before making sweeping conclusions such as Big Al is the cause of losing. Teams gear up to stop Big Al, every game since he stepped into a Timberwolves uniform. Not McCants, Telfair, Gomes, Foye, Brewer or Love. They make their gameplan around stopping Big Al. When Big Al goes to the bench, they take out the player defending him and also players who are running their asses to double and triple team him. Thats their rest time. When he comes back in, they get their best players out again.
Big Al ain't got much help from his teammates, coaches or the front office to counter this startegy. But, hes trying and getting batter at passing out of the double teams, all to no avail.
I must admit, I really needed to see Yuck's reply to the Olajuwon comparison for Jefferson. I really needed to see someone else emphatically reject that idea out of hand, because it's just way too flawed a concept.
The biggest (of many) reasons why is that Olajuwon was better on defense than on offense (had more defensive win shares than offensive win shares in EACH of his last 15 seasons in the league), and that Olajuwon was arguably the best defensive player of his generation (led the league in defensive win shares and defensive rating 5 times each). You can't just discount that part of Olajuwon's game and say "well other than that, they are kind of similar". And that's not even touching on Dream's ridiculous athletic ability, another thing that set his upside far beyond Jefferson's.
Big Al is a great low-post scorer and a very good rebounder. That doesn't remotely qualify him to be compared to Olajuwon (or Duncan, or KG, the only two players in this generation comparable to Dream in both offensive and defensive impact). As much as it doesn't feel good to say, the Zach Randolph or even Elton Brand comps are much more appropriate for Big Al than someone like Dream.
First of all, I think this is a good discussion and I don't think that anyone is saying anything crazy. We all know everyone here has solid takes and no one is going overboard. Part of the fun about Big Al is that he can be viewed in so many different ways. Awesome offense + terrible defense can do that. How about this as a middle ground: instead of being the problem, I'd argue that he's not the solution.
I'd disagree that the Wolves have a single star player. Someone has to score the points and grab the rebounds and while Al is the best player on the team, I don't think he fares well compared to the best 4s and 5s in the league.
I personally don't see the kick outs that the Strib article is talking about. I see some but some of that has to do with the fact he has zero teammates to run a 2 man game with.
I don't think Al is in the same universe as The Dream or Duncan. Al is a nice player in terms of the 2009 NBA. Those two are top 5 at their position of all time. I get what you're saying about building around post players, but those 2 guys are historically good players. Al is not.
I've been meaning to go back and look at his numbers with the Celtics but does anyone know how well Al played next to Kendrick Perkins? I'm not so sure the "surround him with a solid defensive center" approach is going to work. It certainly doesn't hold with what the Spurs are currently doing. They patch it together every year with spare parts at the other front court position. Again, they also have a historically good player and 2 fantastic perimeter players, but I think they'd be far more effective rebuilding with a serviceable center (Rasho, Nenad Krstic) and real perimeter players than they would be blowing a pick on Thabeet just for the sake of having a center.
I think Jefferson could bring back some good value if he were traded on draft day. I don't know who that trade would be with so it's hard to even speculate, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that he could be moved and that this team could get something of reasonable value in return. If you can get the right offer, you make the deal. I think the right offer is a solid perimeter player, like Martin.
BTW: I like Martin because he's fantastically efficient (he's injured this year so his numbers are down) and he can shoot outside as well as get to the line. He's the closest thing to Reggie Miller there has been in a long time.
APB: Good point about Jefferson's improved passing ability. I'm actually not as big of a Jefferson apologist as I sound on this board, but I'm going to bat for him because I think that trading him would be a strategic error unless we got a bigtime player back in return. But I will say that Jefferson has improved in numerous areas since last year: passing out of double teams (which he almost never did last year, and he's now actually doing with some panache), shooting the mid-range jumper, and blocking shots. I've seen a lot of improvement from Al since he got here, and even though he looks like he's 35, his skills show that he's improving and probably will continue to improve. If Al gets some help, we'll see some real improvement around here. People should be focusing their negative energy on McHale and McCants, not Jefferson.
All of that said, Brand and Randolph-type players do have value. You don't just give them away for peanuts unless there are mitigating circumstances (i.e. Randolph's off-court issues in Portland, or his contract in NY). So I'm not advocating a Big Al firesale...I'm just saying that he isn't the type to build around as The Centerpiece and that if we want to realistically assess how the Wolves move forward we need a better assessment of his value than comparisons to Olajuwon
Admittedly, Shogun's last post clarifies he meant offense only and the basketball-reference stats are nice. Though here's another basketball-reference link for Randolph at age 22 vs. Big Al at age 23:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1...
I think I'm closer to Yuck's side of this discussion. The one big difference between Al and the other low post superstars is defense. Duncan and Hakeem both play both sides of the ball. To say that Al is the shot-blocker Hakeem was seems like a gross misstatement. Al has been blocking shots more, but he is not an intimidator on the defensive side. This is his main problem, he fails not only at guarding his own man but at team defense as well. Every team that plays the wolves gets to the rim with impunity with whatever guards they have because the team defense is so bad. Love is just as bad or worse than Jefferson at this, it's really disappointing. This is why Al is a 2nd tier star and not a superstar/cornerstone of a franchise.
drza44 & caerochren: Good points. I took for granted that we all knew that Jefferson *isn't* as good as Hakeem, and that I was only comparing their offensive style and how that kind of dominating offensive presence could best be used/built around. Hakeem was only a metaphor, and I only invoked it because Al's post game is unique enough that there aren't many good metaphors (and I don't think Zach Randolph is an appropriate one either).
I think Jefferson's trade value is higher than we disgruntled Wolves fans think. Opposing fans and GMs know, as APB pointed out, that Jefferson is our only player and that every team's strategy revolves around shutting him down. Since more teams have begun to rely on this strategy, we've been losing by bigger margins, because we don't have any other good players. But despite the opposing strategy, Al has been showing new wrinkles (especially passing out of the double team) that suggest that he isn't hopeless and that he has the tools to become a better-rounded (I don't want to say well-rounded, at least not yet) played who knows how to do the right things on the court. Anyway, in a recent Dime Magazine blog entry, the bloggers posed the question, Who is better, Al Jefferson or Amare Stoudemire? I expected the overwhelming response to be Amare, because he's more famous, flies higher, and plays for the Suns. But it appeared that more readers thought Jefferson was the better player. Obviously this wasn't a sample of GMs, but I have to think that there'd be a GM out there wanting to give up some significant value for a chance to build around a 22-11 guy who isn't yet in his prime. If we get that kind of value, pull the trigger, but don't trade him out of haste/frustration/desperation just because we're on a long losing streak and we're bored and want to see something new on the court.
Sorry, I can't stay quiet on the subject of AJ. I agree with YUK to the utmost.
Just watch AJ play. He is always looking for his shot first. Rather than the quick recognition of a double team (like Tim Duncan or Yao Ming) he jibs an djabs and positions until he gets his shot off. He waits until he has 3 defenders on him befor ehe will pass.
Britt, one game of passing too much does not account for what a lousy team mate and selfish player he is. Britt you call him Alpha but alpha in a Wolf pack is determined by the pack and not by declaring himself. And that is what AJ has done.
I don't understand how who I consider to be very savy basketball fans and very informed can't get past the scoring.
I want you to ask yourself this 1 question. Does AJ make the PEOPLE ON HIS TEAM BETTER?
My answer is no. What's yours and be honest...
My hope is that there are a few GMs out there who either don't take the time of watching as many Wolves games as we have or think they can change or mitigate some of Al's fundamental flaws to the point where he can be a valuable plug into their system.
A second tier star (such as Kevin Martin) or some combination of picks, cap space, and projects would in my opinion represent very good value for Al Jefferson. Not a firesale.
Please, just separate KG from the equation here. That was grand theft. What is a Zach Randolph or Elton Brand type (and those comparisons are looking like more of a stretch all the time) really worth?
The only thing I am certain of is that the longer we wait, and the more Al's body of work grows, the less we will receive.
I posted this on another board but it fits here too:
It would be interesting to see how this team would play without Jefferson in the lineup. I'm not hoping for an injury or trade but the points and rebounds have to come from some place and I actually think the Wolves would revert to a style of ball more suited to the other 11 guys on the squad if they didn't sprint into 1/2 court sets that dump the ball down into the post and allow the defense to collapse. I'm reaching a bit with the following take because we obviously don't know what goes on in the locker room or on the bench, but it seems like the guards on this team have been told that they need to play in a way that doesn't suit their (relatively weak) strengths. Would they run more? Would they play Love higher out? Would they run plays for him and tell Miller to put up 20 shots per game? I don't think the type of 20/10 production that Al provides would be that hard to replace considering the draft and cap assets that this team has going forward. This year it would obviously be a mess but how much more of a mess could it be and could you get value for him in a potential deal?
I'd caveat this by saying I hope they keep him and that they can surround him with some real perimeter players, especially some good guards. But I really wonder if he's just filling the stat sheet on a team with relatively weak talent. His stats don't give a clear answer on this front and they certainly are placed in greater ambiguity with this particular front office and their inability to properly gauge talent.
Great discussion all and good points all around.
Jessie G, I'll answer your question with another question.
How much better would the Wolves be with any other PF in the league trading places with Al?
My answer is at most 3-5 games with KG or Duncan. Al has weaknesses, no doubt (and I pretty much agree with SNP, DRZ, and others who say Al is also seriously flawed in certain respects), but there is no doubt he is surrounded with very bad to mediocre players right now. It is preety difficult to make Telfair into a better shooter, Smith Taller, Love older, Foye a PG, Brewer healthy, Gomes a offensive threat, Miller to shoot more, McCants head on straight. He has very little to opportunity to improve others games just as KG was never going to make Ricky Davis, Mike James or Mark Blount better. Sometimes players can't get much better. Gomes, nice a guy and whatever accolodes you can put on someone who is most noted for being a glue guy, just is not going to be much better than he al ready is.
SNP, you raise a very good point that I think needs exploring re: what big fits next to Big Al. It also goes to a phenomenon that I don't think has been properly explored about the difference between basketball pre-1990 and basketball today.
Pre-1990, the mantra was that a big man needed to just play big. Between your center and your power forward you needed good post scoring and good post defense, with perhaps some ability to pass as nice icing. But those were the primary requirements for your big men, and you saw numerous double-big frontlines work.
In this generation, though, more versatility is expected (maybe even required) from your big men. There needs to be at least a mid-range offensive game (both shooting and passing) in there somewhere, maybe even some perimeter. There needs to be strong help defense out to the perimeter to defend the pick-and-roll, which got kicked up a notch league-wide after Stockton and Malone. There is more size and athleticism at the 1 - 4 position now than there was back in the day and there are more sophisticated offensive/defensive schemes now than there were then, so you need your bigs to be more adaptable and able to do more things.
Look at the most important frontline combos of the last decade of champions: KG/Perkins, Shaq/Horry, Duncan/Horry, Ben and Sheed Wallace, Duncan and Robinson. Dominant post defense and inside/outside versatility are more prevalent in recent champs than even pure post scoring.
Which leads us back to Big Al. A guy like Duncan is great and diverse enough by himself that he can be paired next to a generic big like Rasho and still lead a championship caliber frontline.
But Big Al's game leaves too many requirements for almost any one player to fit next to him on that caliber of frontline: he'd need a 7-foot elite defender that could play inside and out on both offense and defense while also helping facilitate the offense. There aren't many of those around, and those that are around are stars. I don't see a Thabeet developing that kind of diversity to his game, but then someone like Love is too far in the other direction: he has the diversity, but not the size. Short of genetically morphing Thabeet and Love together...or else cloning Kevin Garnett, I don't know if there IS a big to pair with Big Al on a championship caliber frontline.
And that, at the end of the day (and a rambling post), is the biggest argument I could see for trading Big Al. I don't think he has championship upside unless there are a LOT of things fit around him, and with a good trade perhaps the Wolves could find some easier to build around pieces.
On the other hand, perhaps they couldn't...and at least in the short term Big Al is a borderline All Star talent, which is better than nothing...which would be the argument for keeping him.
To Jesse's question...Does Al make his teammates better, I offer an emphatic NO.
I'll go so far as to say he makes them worse...and clearly some of the players on this team have gotten worse despite round the clock practice, exercise, and playing against the world's best competition night in and night out. Is that all Al's fault, of course not, but he's a major factor.
Which leads in to SNPs above comments (which I completely agree with, except for your caveat). The rest of the team's talents are ill suited for the style that a Al-focused system demands.
Combine that with his chemistry killing selfishness and horrid defense, and I am dumbfounded that anyone would seriously consider trying to mold a roster around him. He's a net liability.
My hunch is that OJ Mayo would not look like half the player next to Al.
APB I agree with you. The margin of victories would probably be only slightly higher with another power forward.
But your relcutance to answer if AJ makes his team mates better is an answer in itself..is it not?
I don't mean to totally discard the value of AJ to the team. But at the same token, I want to stress that I think that his flaws run so deep that it ust doesn't matter what he does on the offensive end. And our record reflects that.
To say our team is talentless is not true. To say we are talented is not true either. We have a collection of mis matched pieces in that the sum of our parts is greater than the whole.
I am agreeing with other posters in that something needs to be done. This team is screaming to be blown up.
Just a quick touch on things.. Bradon Roy had 52 points and has been an all star and is the team leader and the franchise player. I feel that if we had sucha strong personality in the back court on this team like Roy, we would be doing pretty good. I don't think AJ has or will let anyone guide this team but him. And so far he's guided us to 4 wins...
drza44: Good points. I've been thinking about this too. I'm not sure you need a "diverse guy" next to Al (if they end up with Al at the end of what the Hoopus guys might call the Jefferson/Love Death Match). I think you need a shotblocking defender who provides weakside help after Jefferson and Love get beat man-to-man. I know Britt has always said he thinks Camby would be the perfect fit, and I agree with that. Which is why I've been screaming to take a flier on Sean Williams. If he's allowed just to go out and play defense with no other responsibilities, I think he could develop into the kind of weak side shot blocker we need. And like I said, I think he'd be cheap. We should be scrounging together parts who might not be in our future plans and see if we can get him from NJ. He probably wouldn't be a savior, but he'd be worth trying out with our spare change.
Otherwise, I think a big bruiser would fit well next to him. I wanted DeAndre Jordan before the draft on potential alone, because he'd never have to develop into an offensive threat to help our team - Jefferson already does all of that. We need a big guy who can clean up after Al's messes, block shots, and grab rebounds. Jordan might never have turned into that kind of player, but that's the kind of player I'd be looking for.
Some of these arguments being made are impossible to counter. If you're going to say that Al Jefferson would prevent OJ Mayo and Brandon Roy from being the players that they currently are--well, you've got me there. If anything, Rudy Gay would seem like a player more likely to limit OJ as a teammate. I've seen Foye, McCants, Telfair and others get plenty of shots this year and miss a whole helluva lot of them. Unless Big Al is casting a spell on them or threatening them behind the scenes if they make too many shots tonight, I'm not sure how that works.
Looking at it objectively and through what actually can be watched on the court, versus psycho-analyzing and locker room speculation, I think the reverse is true and if Randy Foye was a more polished point guard, Jefferson would average closer to 26-27 ppg on a better team. As it is, Jefferson hardly gets any free throw attempts. Go back and watch the Cleveland game and point to one possession where Foye did something to get his big man a good shot. Normally (or at least, traditionally) the point guard is the primary playmaker for his teammates--not the other way around. Never does a point guard on this team break down the defense and drop a dime in Al's lap. Telfair did a few times, before he was relegated to third-string duties, but even he wasn't setting up too many easy ones.
I'm not arguing that Jefferson is as good as Duncan or Hakeem--hell, I'm not even arguing he should be on this year's All-Star team. I'm just making the unbelievably obvious point that he's our best player. And, because he's only 23 years old, I don't suggest trading him for less than his significant value.
APB, with either Duncan or Garnett I believe this current Wolves team, with all of their warts, are at least .500 and within site of the last playoff spot. I remember a (now laughable) post that I made in the preseason about how the Wolves have arguably the best talent of this millenium at most slots. But honestly...next to KG or Duncan, I think that would have born out.
Start Collins at C next to KG and all of a sudden he looks like 2004 Erv Johnson as the untalented but big/defensive minded lump that is surprisingly effective, with Kevin Love and Craig Smith off the bench as much more talented versions of Mark Madsen and Gary Trent. Suddenly the starting frontline is excellent defensively, and there is nice versatility between post scoring, perimeter scoring, and excellent rebounding.
Put Gomes, Miller, Brewer, and McCants as swingmen around KG and suddenly they compare more favorably with the 04 versions of Sprewell, Wally, Hassell and Hoiberg. Probably start Brewer in Hassell's role as the kamikaze perimeter defender that forms the last of the defensive backbone with KG and Collins. Let Miller play Spree's role on offense as the kick-out guy for treys, though he would probably be relied upon more heavily on a game-by-game basis as a ball-handler (in this analogy) because of Foye's weakness at PG when compared to Cassell. And Gomes/McCants could combine to approximate the glue and shotmaking of Wally and Hoiberg.
PG is obviously the point where the '04 comp breaks down, as Foye isn't nearly on Cassell's level. But with KG as the centerpiece instead of Big Al, suddenly Foye's strengths become strengths again and his weaknesses are more hidden. Instead of having to try to be a pure playmaker, Foye can be made into a scorer again with KG and Miller helping with the playmaking.
Also, though KG has never been one that runs a lot himself in transition, I remember in the KG + the Kids line-up from '07 the TEAM ran a lot. Foye and McCants used to leak out for transition outlet passes fairly often, and with both KG and Love as excellent outlet passers there would likely be plenty of easy fastbreak points available Foye/McCants/Brewer to get their confidence up on a game-by-game-basis.
And this doesn't even touch upon intangibles like leadership, confidence (see Foye's quotes about what it's like to play with KG), locker room strength, and team mentality.
It's funny, the more I think about it, Jefferson vs. KG/Duncan reminds me of an argument that I had with a friend of mine in the early 2000s. He wasn't a KG fan, and basically said that there was no difference between KG and Shareef Abdur-Rahim since both were 20/10 guys. This was an easy argument for me, obviously, but what ended it was when I pointed out to him that there really was no difference in player caliber between Bibby/Big Country/Dickerson/Othella Harrington and Brandon/Rasho/Wally/Peeler as supporting casts...but KG's team was winning 50 games while Abdur-Rahim's was winning 20 games.
There's a lot more to the game than just 20/10, and I don't doubt that with Duncan or KG as the centerpiece this Wolves team would at worst be sniffing around the last playoff spot out West at this point. They might fade (like the 06 and 07 Wolves did after bad coaching/personnel moves), but at this point in the season they'd at least be in the mix. Much more than a 3 - 5 game difference, IMO.
Drza,
Championship might be thinking way too big right now. I don't consider them similar players except for position, but having a point guard like Stockton to pair with Jefferson's Malone.
Championship would be nice, but I'd be pretty happy with what Williams and Boozer are doing too.
Drza,
You might have a point on the KG/Duncan, but I think KGs last year here had better talent than the Wolves have right now and that team wasn't in the playoff hunt nor near .500 after Casey left.
You have to make the Wittman and McHale adjustment, too. ;)
Hell yeah drza44.
APB- how you could possibly read that extremely well reasoned post and then reply that we are only a Hall of Fame point guard away from making this work is beyond me. Never mind the Malone-Jefferson comparison.
The gulf between the Al apologists and the "realists" is just too great here. I'm out, but I'll keep checking back to read and laugh.
Lol. Touche' on the Wittman adjustment. On the other hand, I don't agree that the 06-07 Wolves were a better supporting cast than the 08-09 Wolves. Just think about what became of the rotation players on that team: Davis and Blount went on to play for a historically bad team, and now are not playing at all. James didn't play at all last year. Hassell doesn't play at all. Jaric no longer plays at all since leaving the Wolves. Foye and McCants look much worse now than they should have based on what we saw in '06-07.
I take Mike Miller 10 times out of 10 over Davis. I take rookie Kevin Love 10 times out of 10 over Blount. I take Gomes 10 times out of 10 over Jaric. Not only do I believe them to be better basketball players, but the difference between them in the locker room can't possibly be overstated. And I already said above in my (ridiculously overlong) post that I think Foye, McCants, and Brewer look a lot more like the players that they were expected to be playing next to KG.
In fact, if you think about it, that could be a large chunk of their problem...they were drafted specifically because their strengths/weaknesses projected well next to Garnett. Foye and McCants were suposed to be the scorers next to KG, and Brewer seems a good fit as a longer, more athletic, more talented Hassell under KG's tutelage. Suddenly, you replace KG's all-around brilliance with Jefferson's beautiful scoring ability and Foye/McCants' lacks as playmakers are exposed. Then, psychologically, the kids went from apprentices with a Sensei at their backs to a complete lack of leadership and support.
Say what you will about Foye and McCants...but Foye was 1st team All Rookie for a reason playing next to KG, and McCants has NEVER been as bad as he's been this year. At least some of that is due to usage, some to team role, and a lot to (I believe) confidence.
Yuck,
As in politics, and every other argument, well reasoned does not mean much. I think you have made well-reasoned arguments, just as SnP, AndyG, Drza, Jessie and others. But, the reason we come to different conclusions is because we start with different assumptions. As I stated ealier, your assumption that Al Jefferson is a horrible player and the cause of the Twolves problems is ridiculous and, yes, it even makes me laugh. I will agree he has problems and he is not the cornerstone piece to build around, but give Al a hall a famer as a point guard and, you bet I believe we are suddenly watching a competitive team, even if Al, just as Malone, never wins a championship.
As Shogun says, I don't want to be an Al "apologist," and I'm not sure anyone here is. Everyone has recognized and called out his limitations. Our differences are in emphasis. My reasoning begins with the assumption that Al is the least of the Wolves problems and then goes from there. Yours begins with Al is the source of the problem and proceeds from there.
So naturally if we each believe that the others main assumption is laughable or ridiculous, not matter how well reasoned, our conclusions will seem laughable and ridiculous to our interlocutor, too.
I find this latest burst of "Al" "No Al" commentary to be interesting for what it doesn't address: Big Al's slow footed transition game. If you're going to put together a team of tweeners who are supposed to run, you can't build your offense around a lumbering half court player, no matter how good his scoring and rebounding are, or how smothering his defense is (or isn't). The issue here is team identity and purpose.
Basketball is a dynamic, not a static game. You need to think it in motion, not in static sets -- at least not since the days of two handed set shots and white boys like myself who could barely touch the rim. This is a game of flow, and we go in two directions. I keep waiting for Brewer to find a game by flying down the wing with a poor man's Dr. J abandon; I keep waiting to see Foye or Telfair have to catch up to a game that is moving faster than they can dribble. In such a game, Gomes would have a role and Love, if he truly has the outlet passes that the scouts claim, would also have a role. And if the stars are aligned, Shaddy might become something wonderful to behold (though I wouldn't bet the farm).
Conversely, in a jam-it-in to Jefferson game, with an occasional cutter and slicer, none of our players, with the possible exception of Telfair (if he could find a shot) has any real role to play. Maybe Love, with a little luck, a few more muscles, and a high post role to complement Al in the low post. Maybe Miller, if he claims his shot and gets out of whatever strange zone he is currently inhabiting.
But, frankly, I see a team in search of an identity. Jefferson has wonderful moves, but he doesn't see the court and he can't run the court. Thus he is neither Duncan nor Hakeem. In fact, he is more of a baby Shaq than anything else. And it's pretty obvious what Shaq needed to succeed -- a Kobe or a Wade.
I, personally, think this team is dead, because it can't survive emotionally for the time necessary to find out if Big Al can become a team leader/passer, to see if Shaddy has not lost all his bearings, to see if Foye can ever emerge with an identity, to see if KLove can find 6 inches or a shot. This team is close to unravelling, and my sad opinion is that it should self-destruct so that even the blindest of its proponents has to acknowledge that the end has come.
But, realistically
Sorry for the last non-sentence. It should have been removed.
DRZA,
This whole season makes me completely unsure of myself in evaluating talent. I'l just say that I began the year thinking the Wolves had a lot of talent and that Al Jefferson was on his way to becoming a big time NBA player and would lead this team towards a huge step to being respectable. My assessments of both points have taken a giant step backwards. I no longer think Al is a "great" player and, basically, the Chris Paul of the current NBA power forwards. But I also don't think much, any longer, of the overall talent on the Wolves squad and would not be surprised to see only a couple of Current Wolves still in the NBA two or three years from now.
Damn you Dr. K...I said I'd stop posting today...but...
AMEN
The one thing I see in common with all these posts is that the "team" as it stands now isn't working...
When do we start positioning ourselves for the draft?
Do we owe the Clippers our 1st rounder this year? Or what's the deal?
If I remeber correctly, if we go lottery we don't owe it to them. But if we are out of the lottery we owe it to them. But next year, lottery or not, we have to give them our first rounder.
Sad because without major change I don't see the Wolves getting out of the lottery for another 3-4 years.
A lottery pick for Jaric?! HAHAHAHA!!!
Awesome discussion guys. My take this year is that the overall talent and athleticism on this roster is so far below most other teams in the league that it's difficult to judge whether Al Jefferson can one day be a top three player on a good team. We already know he is not in KG, Duncan or Hakeem's class but we won't know if he can do what he currently does on a playoff team until he has better teammates.
I agree with Trent Tucker's recent comments that if you're going to build a team around a star in today's NBA you're a lot better off if that star is a peremeter player. A good guard can make a mediocre big seem better by setting him up with shots on offense and preventing dribble penetration on D. Finding a Big who can make mediocre guards better is a taller task.
The Wolves guard play has been so bad this year that it's almost more of a credit to Jefferson that he's scored as much as he has considering nearly all his points require intense labor. I also totally disagree with the sentiment that Mayo wouldn't play well with Jefferson and in contrast believe they'd complement one another perfectly since Mayo can hit shots from anywhere on the floor and is not the matador defender or reluctant shooter that Miller is.
Jesse g,
Wolves keep the pick if it is in Top 10. It's also top 10 protected next year, and then unprotected. At least that is what I remember.
Great post, Jim--especially the last paragraph. There's nothing else I can add on this topic.
Nate, Jessie G,
I think next year is top 3 protected.
Jim: Good comment. I'm with you all the way down. My points above, again, weren't to make Jefferson sound like more than he is - we all know his deficiencies. Rather, they were to warn against trading him. We can't really know what we have until we put some other pieces around him, so let's not rush to trade him.
Glad to see the banter going on Al. If he is supposed to be the best player we got for KG, he deserves the most scrutiny.
The people who have mentioned team identity and style of play are on the right track. What that style of play is should be debated by the (hopefully) new front office so that roster issues can be addressed and actual steps toward a real team can be taken.
To clarify, I'm not saying Al is the only problem or the biggest problem with this team. There are numerous issues that plague the ability of this team to ever change. The reason I single out Al is because he was billed as the "replacement" for you know who. Remember the press conference with McHale and Al and the two of them basicly mocking KG's stats saying Al equaled them and yada yada yada...
I'm not making unfair comparisons here, this is how the team sold the trade to the public.
Well, if KG is the bench mark, then Al has a LONG way to go, stats be damned. I'm talking about face of a franchise, superstar, people are proud to have you represent their team type status. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN WITH AL!
Andy G -
You make some good points, but Al as Tim Duncan or Olajuwon, really? That comparison kind of takes credibility away from you. I'm joking there, but lets be reasonable here. Those guys are all time greats and champions.
Shogun, I agree with you. However, the pieces you put around him need to be established, and strong minded.
I can see a guy like Michael Redd (or some type of younger version) going well with him. But I'm am at a loss to explain.
What we should do for the draft is let McHale make the decision to draft..but don't let him trade after it's been made.
Since I share his surname and I think he provides some of the best analysis on this board, I'll take the time to clarify what Andy G said it regard to Duncan and Olajuwan.
Al Jefferson is a "flow killer" -- well, then--I guess so was Olajuwon and so is Duncan. He's not a high post passer, like Chris Webber or something--he's a low block scorer.
This is not a comparison btw Al and Olajuwan and Duncan. It is a statement that says if you are going to call Al Jefferson a "flow-killer" for doing what he does best which is score on the low block, then you have to make the same call on Duncan and Olajuwan. The Ball goes into Al on the low block and, chances are he'll score just as with Duncan and Olajuwan. Andy said nothing that equated Al's all-around game with either Duncan or Olajuwan.
just sayin'...
Mplseed,
Remember the press conference with McHale and Al and the two of them basicly mocking KG's stats saying Al equaled them and yada yada yada...
I will agree with you that Al deserves scrutiny and that he cannot carry KG's waterbottle. However, I honestly do not remember that press conference.
Thank you Yuck for making an intelligent argument against Big Al. I'm not the most informed commenter around but even I know that comparing Big Al to the Dream, Duncan or Malone is ridiculous and more than a little sad, even if they were not meant as direct comparisons. Tony Campbell averaged over 20 as well you know. Big Al is the new Tony Campbell.
APB, hahah can't carry KG's water bottle LOL that's prolly an understatement.
AJ hasn't been on a team with a winning record yet.
KG has been surrounded by less talent than AJ on this Wolves squad and yet they consistantly performed above their talent to produce winning records and or playoff births.
KG was a team player. Unselfish. Worked hard on both ends of the floor. Emotional leader, team leader.
Sorry none of these words describe AJ.
Jessie G.,
I agree.
Its been a great discussion guys. Go to go home. Have a great weekend. What will we witness against Houston tomorrow night?
The reason I think it is fair to call Al a flow-killer while excluding Duncan and Hakeem is that they are/were much quicker to make their move. They re-post more often and are much better at recognizing double teams and passing out of them. Al might be passing more now, but it doesn't seem like it to me. To his credit, he can score against most double teams and even triple teams with good efficiency, but he is still a black hole. So even as an efficient scorer he can kill the offensive flow.
Going to the idea of team play - was anyone else amused to hear McHale talk about making the Lakers adjust to his smaller players by out hustling them? That is the paradox of Jefferson and Love - they are undersized for their positions but also slow for their positions. Not a good combination.
I also agree that the current team is a better supporting cast than KG had his last year and were he on the team they would be a play-off team.
All that said, he is the best player on the team and should only be traded with a clear plan in mind.
I think it's delusional to believe KG could make the playoffs with the current roster. Who would the second best player be, Foye? Foye is having a nearly historically bad year. Is there a worse second best player on any NBA team? Miller has been exposed as grossly over-rated because of his lack of defensive ability and inability to create a shot. Love is overpowered in the paint, Smith is too small to be legit factor on both ends and Gomes is a role player and nothing more. Who else on the roster is worth a mention?
Wait... Jim I agree with you on some parts but..
With a roster that consists of:
Troy Hudson (aka mr. buyout)
Anthony Peeler (can't hit a shot from the outside)
Wally Sczerbiak (No defense when healthy. But hardly ever healthy)
Michael Olowakandi (HAHAHA)
Ervin (not so magic) Johnson
Joe Smith (ordinary in name and ordinary in game)
Eddie Griffin
You're saying they had more talent than our current team? I disagree.
My comment was a response to caerochren, who said:
I also agree that the current team is a better supporting cast than KG had his last year and were he on the team they would be a play-off team.
Actually though. I see your point. It's such a toss up! hahaha
But I learned through the years and especially since KG went to Boston, that you can never under estimate the KG factor.
It's like asking "Cholera or the Plague?" Both are terminal, neither is pleasant, and both had the same result.
Wow it's an interesting thing to poner if KG could take this current team to the playoffs if you were to take out AJ and insert KG.
One's thing for sure..we'd have 1 guy playing defense.
I don't think Al is the problem on the team, but he is not going to be a top 5 player, and that's what we were used to. Al is a very good one way player, and his scoring is fun to watch on a team that has very few good moments. In fact, whenever I read about trading Al, I feel the same way as I felt about trading KG. If we are not going to be competetive for a LONG time, can't we at least have something to watch? When I look at the roster (and I admit that I'mm affected by recent play, I don't think it will be competetive while Al is still in his 20s. Really, the way I see this ending is Taylor selling the team to Seattle.
Just to remind everyone of what McHale said after the trade of KG...
http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/wolves_press_conference_transcript_...
http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/mchale_and_jefferson_press_conferen...
Now, a full year plus later, how much of this has come true?
The most interesting part to me was the rebound answer. Al knew he ave. 11.2 boards per game pretty quick, wonder if he would've know the W-L stats of the TEAM as quick...
Just saying
MPLSeed,
I don't think the Wolves got the best of that trade. Far from it. But, I don't see how McHale and Jefferson "mocked" KG at those press conferences.
As I, an others have said all along. Al is not without his flaws and he is not KG, Malone, Duncan or Hakeem. But here is my final say on the manner. By Far Al is closer to the elite players at his position than any other Wolf player. He is closer to KG and DUncan than Randy Foye is to Chris Paul,Chaucncey, Deron Williams, D. Wade. He is closer to KG and Duncan than Gomes is to T-Mac or Paul Pierce, or Melo, than Miller is to Kobe, Ray Allen, or Lebron, than Collins is to Oden, bynum, Howard or Ming, Than McCants is to Roy, etc.
Al has his faults and I would consider trading him for the right player(s), but the Wolves quickest way to being competitive is to get a great player or two to play with Al next year. Thats my opinion, anyway.
Comparing KG's last year (hopefully that was 06-07, I'm too heavily medicated at the moment to research properly), these were the teams:
06-07 08-09
Vin Baker Kevin Love
Mark Blount Jason Collins
Ricky Davis Mike Miller
Randy Foye Randy Foye
Kevin Garnett Al Jefferson
Eddie Griffin Calvin Booth
Trenton Hassel Ryan Gomes
Troy Hudson Sebastian Telfair
Mike James Corey Brewer
Marko Jaric Rodney Carney
Mark Madsen Mark Madsen
Rashad McCants Rashad McCants
Justin Reed Brian Cardianal
Craig Smith Craig Smith
Bracey Wright Kevin Ollie
I think generally (assuming the formatting doesn't get totally screwed this should be clear), it looks to me like the team is better in every respect). I still think KG would have these guys in the play-offs with no problems. Well, a really moot point.
Hmmm, the formatting did get screwed. I should have used html I guess.
As long as we are wrapping it up, I'll summarize too.
1) I DO think Al Jefferson is a big part of the problem here. I suspect his selfishness is causing chemistry issues. I can see with my own eyes that he is causing problems defensively. He doesn't defend his man singularly. More importantly, he doesn't play help defense, call out picks, or attempt to pick up the shooter on pick and rolls. This consistently puts our perimeter players in bad spots. Offensively, he is the focal point in a system that most of our team is ill suited too play. It should only follow that he looks good in this system geared towards his strengths, while his teammates look worse in a system that highlights their deficiencies and negates their strengths.
2) Despite his glaring faults, Jefferson most likely has the highest trade value on this roster. I'd posit that much of this is due to be "highlighted", which has boosted his stats, but that is kind of beside the point. I believe that Al's trade value probably peaked last season, and the down side acceleration could be steep if the rest of the league starts asking why this guy's big stats aren't translating into any wins and digs a little deeper.
3)Al is not the worst player on this team...far from it. I've always given him props for his scoring and he is a pretty good rebounder as well. He is, however, the highest paid and most overvalued player on this team. Smart GM'ing and simple economics suggest that the way too add value to the roster is to "buy low and sell high".
4) The Wolves need to add value to this team...lots and lots of value. We were a bad to mediocre team and we traded a once in a lifetime talent for pennies on the dollar. Now we are the worst team in the league and we potentially have the opportunity to sell a good but not great talent for dollars on the penny.
5) Trading Foye, McCants, Love, or Brewer will yield very little in return. I honestly believe that these guys would look much better, hopefully closer to the players we thought they might be, if the Wolves were to play more an uptempo, less half court offensive scheme. I am not saying that any or all of them should be on the going forward roster of the future, but trading any of them now would be "selling low" and most likely "buying high" whatever we get in return.
APB -
In the actual audio, you can hear the mocking tone (or maybe I'm just listening through bias ears). I just wanted to vent a little about the trade, since it looks more and more lopsided as the year goes on.
You are right in saying that Al is the best player at a single position we have and the only consistent anything we have. I guess my issue is the intangibles.
Tonight (despite the loss) I saw some positive signs from Al and, to be fair, since I was pretty harsh earlier, the defensive effort and leadership qualities we've all been hoping for surfaced a bit. Now, 1 game does not a career make, but it is something to build off of.
Thanks again for all the banter, everyone.
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