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On the Ball
The Three-Pointer: Better, Still Not Good Enough
Photo copyright 2008 NBAE (Photo by David Sherman/NBAE via Getty Images)
Game #26, Home Game #13: Minnesota 102, Houston 109
Season Record: 4-22
1. Compete or Develop?
When your team has lost 21 of its first 25 games and the past 11 in a row, you are desperate to break the spell, banish the albatross, rid yourself of the relentless notation that a losing streak creates. But you also must necessarily face the reality that your season is lost to everything but preparation for future years, and your best plan is to hasten the development of players who you expect will play a central role on your teams going forward. Of course not doing everything possible to win and compete can be a form of bad development as well as good--you're fostering a losing mentality and depriving your inexperienced talent of a chance to learn by watching as well as doing. On the other hand, if you play these wizened vets who can show the young'uns the ropes and you're still getting your rears kicked night after night, is that really the best strategy either?
The subject is particularly pertinent after tonight's Houston victory over Minnesota because for the second straight contest 35-year old journeyman guard Kevin Ollie played more than half the game while 23-year old backup Bassy Telfair, the one with the two year contract and an option for a third, was DNP-CD. Furthermore, often derided cheerleader/forward Mark Madsen replaced top draft pick Kevin Love on Kevin McHale's second-half bench rotation tonight, logging 9:36 in the second half while Love was relegated to 6:55 first-half minutes. Purely from a basketball standpoint, there was some logic and some results in both moves. Much as Greg Buckner and Antoine Walker did at points last year, Ollie is provided the sort of seasoned veteran leadership--vocally, but more importantly in terms of timing his intensity and calmness, demonstrating ball movement over shot anxiousness, and developing defensive rotation patterns--that frankly wouldn't be much in evidence without his presence. And, as he has done throughout his weird tenure in Minnesota, Madsen provides infectious, short-term energy and deceptive effectiveness by likewise demonstrating ball movement and defensive rotations. There are many things to say about this, beginning with the obvious: Any team that must rely upon Ollie and McCants to improve on the court has not been built properly.
Okay, but there's not much point in reiterating the "Wolves suck" argument anymore, right? So let's take the issue at face value. In his postgame press conference, Coach Kevin McHale addressed going with Mad Dog over Love in the second half by saying he "Wanted to get some energy out of Dog and have Kevin watch a little bit," plus he wanted Madsen to front the leviathan Yao Ming on defense, something Mad Dog does better than Love will probably ever do because of his relative quickness and defensive emphasis. McHale also said the plan going in was to make Yao a passer more than a scorer. Well, he had 18 points on 9-17 FG and just one assist, but also zero FTs and 4 turnovers. It was far from Yao's best game offensively (we'll address his woeful D later on). Given that Craig Smith wasn't going to be assigned to guard Yao (and that the Rhino was a game-worst minus -13 in 34:51 despite playing well) someone had to spell Jefferson in guarding Yao and among the options of Love, Jason Collins and Madsen, McHale chose Mad Dog in the second half. Bottom line, Madsen was a Wolves-high plus +5 in his second half stint while Love was minus -10 in his first half rotation.
Meanwhile, Ollie was plus +4 in his 29:53, tied for second-best on the team with Jefferson's plus +4 in 44:38. Could Telfair have done as well? Of course we'll never know, but it is interesting that after two days of practice--something McHale has been craving since he took over from Randy Wittman-- the Wolves assisted on less than half their made baskets tonight (18 out of 40) and seemed more apt to move the ball not for jumpers so much as driving lanes. Again, that suits Bassy's style. Right now, McHale is clearly more comfortable with the veteran Ollie. But Mike Miller resprained his ankle in the first quarter, and looks to be out for at least a few games, kicking Randy Foye over to off-guard to fill in at least some of Miller's minutes. Not giving Telfair an opportunity during this time would send another mixed message--you don't sign a guy for two years and then demote him from second to third string (and remember, Bassy started at the point more than any other Timberwolf last season). Finally, if Walker and Buckner were supposed to be providing veteran examples and leadership to the likes of McCants, Foye, Jefferson, Brewer, etc., last year, why hasn't there been more improvement in their play this season?
2. A Big 3
As one who ridiculed McHale's citation of needing practice time as a fake panacea and convenient excuse, let me report that the offense did indeed look more purposeful and lively with a couple of long non-gameday sessions under the team's belt. There was one play that really stood out: Coming out of a time out down 7 with 8:10 to play, Minnesota put Craig Smith out on the high post and had him feed Jefferson for an alley-oop slam-dunk, and audacious play that is an example of the sort of mismatches and innovative wrinkles McHale wants to develop more fully. But more often, there were bread-and-butter drives to the hoop, resulting in layups or postups or pullups that, when it was over, amassed a whopping 52 points in the paint for Minnesota, versus 32 for Houston. Much of this was done with impunity over Yao, the league's tallest player, who remains one of the NBA's most overrated performers, especially on defense. He was horrible tonight, and got little assistance from gimpy wing defenders Tracy McGrady and Shane Battier, both clearly bothered by leg injuries that restricted their lateral movement and quickness.
Whether it was more practice time, Houston's second night of a back-to-back, injuries and slowness on the part of the Rockets, or just the law of averages auguring for a breakout, the Wolves had more than one viable scoring threat tonight for the first time in a long while. Jefferson was masterful, schooling Yao with increasing confidence as the game wore on, helped, no doubt, by the facial he put on Yao in the first half, a demonstration of quickness and guile over height. When it was over, Not So Big Al had jacked up a season high 31 shot attempts, converting 15 for 34 points (4-4 FT), but also grabbing 13 rebounds and passing for a tied-team-high four assists (versus 4 turnovers). It was a superb offensive performance for Minnesota's best player.
He received some crucial assistance in the first half from an unlikely source, Shaddy McCants, back from the left-for-dead with 10 first-quarter points (3-3 FG, 3-3 FT) and plus +6 in the 6:43 remaining in the period after Miller was carried limping off the court with his arms draped on the shoulders of his teammates. Alas, things got progressively worse for McCants after that--2-5 in the second quarter and 0-5 in the second half, although he did get to the line six more times for a game-high 9 attempts in 39:09. Even here, however, danger signs appeared: After sinking his first three attempts, Shaddy missed his first free throw of the second quarter and screamed loudly, scowled, and walked down beneath the basket, a little too close to the ref, to retrieve the ball, his face still contorted in disappointment. And although he made the second of that pair of free throws, he went on to miss three of his remaining four during the course of the game. Some players--notably McCants's idol, Kevin Garnett--benefit from naked displays of pent-up emotion. But that rarely seems to be the case with McCants. Neverhtless, despite his scoreless second half, it bears noting that Shaddy's doled out three dimes in that timeframe to tie Jefferson for the team lead with four overall for the game. An ever-hopeful McHale proclaimed in the postgame that he thought Shaddy "dod a nice job."
But the real coming-out party was Randy Foye's. Houston didn't have a good matchup for Foye the entire game-- with Rafer Alston out, their starting point guard, Aaron Brooks, is too small, and their off-guard, McGrady and others, too large and slow to handle Foye when he's on. In the first half, Foye was the disheartening bricklayer we've seen most of the season, clanging mostly wide-open j's to the tune of 1-7 FG in a foul-shortened 12:41 at intermission. When he emerged from the locker room and followed up a long two 31 seconds into the third with a pair of wide-open misses, it looked like more of the same in the second half. But then, in his second stint of the third period, covering the last 3:19, Foye took advantage of Yao's absence for three straight layups and carried his momentum in the 4th quarter, shooting 5-7 FG, including 2-3 from 3pt for a dozen points operating out of the 2 guard spot between Ollie and McCants.
The second half stats are revealing: Jefferson and Foye combined for 43 points during those two periods, on 20-32 FG; the rest of the team shot 2-14 FG and had 8 points (4 apiece from Ollie and Smith). Only 7 of those 22 buckets (and only 5 of the 20 made by Foye and Jefferson) were assisted. One gets the sense that McHale doesn't mind this disparity as much as Wittman would have-- the former coach preached ball movment to generate good shots; the latter wants it to set up mismatches, a fine distinction that gives more talented scorers a little more leeway.
Meanwhile, Houston shot 52.7% for the game including 52.2% (12-23 FG) from behind the arc. But that's the half-empty part of the looking glass.
3. Merry Holidays and A Shout Out
I won't be doing another three-pointer until next weekend, after the Knicks and Orlando games, and then I'll close out 2008 with another trey after the Memphis and Dallas games. But I do want to take this opportunity to thank my readers for providing an incredibly strong and invigorating comments section that mostly sustains and polices itself (although I do ride herd and keep an eye on tone and well-reasoned, original thinking) and proves that if and when the Wolves start to offer a quality game here in town, that there are plenty of people ready, willing and able to recognize and applaud the fine points as well as the cheap thrills. Those who simply read what I write in the main body owe it to yourselves to skim through some of the recent past entries for commentary that is provocative without being snide, and that mostly backs up contentions with concrete examples or other details to abet their opinons. Thanks to all for making what has been a difficult season much more enjoyable. And rest assured that I'll be chiming in at various points down below during the coming week.
38 Reader Comments
Having not seen the game tonight (I'm at work) my comments should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.
I think the wolves have the same problem as last year, we don't have people surrounding big Al that can can some shots. Mike Miller was supposed to be that guy, Foye was supposed to be another one of those guys, and shaddy was supposed to be that guy off the bench.
I found an interesting quote by Doc Rivers about KG on cnnsi.com under an Ian Thompson piece: "He (KG) made the unselfish plays, the right pass all the time, and because his teams [in Minnesota] weren't good enough, he got criticized for making the right plays. Now he makes the right plays to Paul [Pierce] and Ray [Allen] -- who are wide open and making shots -- and now that makes Kevin great. But it's the same thing he's always done."
Now, I'm not saying that big Al always makes the right pass, but it's hard to call him selfish based on his assist numbers when Foye is hitting %39 and %24 from 3's, Shaddy is shooting an unbelievable %34.5 and %25.6 from 3, and Mike Miller, while shooting a nice percentage, is only shooting 8.6 shots a game (compared to 12.8 and 9.6 for Foye and McCants respectively). Having gone to several games and watched most others, I have to say that I think he's gotten much better at passing out of the inevitable double team. I think it would be helpful to remember that most fan's complaint about KG was that he wasn't "the man" in the 4th quarter (especially in the playoffs).
Well, at least espn has their draft lottery machine up already...
I would disagree with Yao having an awful night. Yao's extremely dependable midrange game is what killed us last night, maybe not throughout the night like the rocket's 3-pointers did, but whenever it mattered, whenever Houston really needed a basket Yao was there to consistently give them one. Just because his d is as bad as Al's doesn't make him overrated. With that size he is far more intimidating in the paint than Big Al ever will be. Just consider how many shots must be altered to even have a chance over Yao. Size does matter which is part of the reason our front court defense is so wretched.
I enjoyed seeing Jefferson dominate on offense and on the glass, and also bringing some good effort on defense, where he not only blocked some shots but at least once got in the passing lanes and did as well on Yao as anyone giving up nine inches could. It was also nice seeing Foye playing like the player we thought we were getting when we drafted him, if only for a half. Ditto Shaddy. There's still a maddening lack of consistency from those guys, but if McHale's practices are really the key to developing that (and I doubt they are, but for the sake of argument...) maybe they'll cobble together better performances the rest of the season. Really, they have nowhere to go but up.
For me, the troubling thing was Love getting benched in the second half. I’ve been quick to criticize Love, and I don’t think any criticism of his offensive play thus far or of the trade itself lacks merit, but when you (literally “you” – McHale) made an extremely controversial and unpopular trade to get “your guy,” aren’t you obligated to play him? Over Mad Dog? C'mon. It's an insult to the 1,000 remaining fans to play Mad Dog over Love while Mayo torches the league in Memphis. McHale made this mess and now he appears ready to sacrifice talent development to try to get a couple wins, just like Wittman did. Bassy’s benching is case in point number two on this. To me, that’s unacceptable, and it is further reason why Taylor should remove McHale from the organization following the season (which I fully believe he will).
I saw three things of interest in last night's game:
1. McCants lost his mind again.
2. The guys' defensive effort on dribble drives by the Rockets was non-existent.
3 Randy Foye played with a fluidity and glide that turned the game into slow motion for him on occasion.
I also was reminded by the half-time piece that these are good young men who deserve credit for their efforts in the community. Though we often berate them for their on-court efforts, we are fortunate to have a group of solid citizens who contribute to the community. Thanks, guys, and have a good Christmas.
Britt -
Great posts as always. Looks like the gods kept a few of us home last night, finally convincing my group to spend our time in other ways with the snow storm. No complaints in the end.
I believe the reasoning behind Big Al's performance can be simplified. Al went back to his crafty arsenal in the post and didn't settle for mid range J's and silly hookshots. I'm sure myself and others all roll our eyes when Al does his patented leg kick mid range J that rarely drops. Last night, rather than settling, Al did the pump fake, brought back the spin, the up and under, and even the facial.
Enjoyed your comments on Shaddy's first half, but I think you may have forgotten his abysmal second. There were roughly 4 or 5 straight possessions where Shad tried to take it to the hole, only to biff a toughie that could only be drained by LeBron in a video game. Not to mention the 4th quarter comeback attempt was thwarted the second McCants missed a driving wide open layup late in the 4th; one of those misses where you shout at the TV even when you are watching a game by yourself.
Silver linings:
Al playing to his strengths and abandoning the mid range J, a trend I hope continues.
Rashad at least hitting shots in the first half
The return of 4th quarter Foye.
Raised eyebrows:
No doubt Love has the confidence of a skinny, acne ridden teenager in a classroom full of cheerleaders. Two straight goose eggs and a 2nd half benching.
An under-discussed Mike Miller injury. This one looked pretty bad. Im guessing he's out a month.
Another loss. If these continue it may be time to discuss a player shuffle. These guys aren't young any more and excuses are dwindling.
As much as Al was on fire, and maybe this game is one exception, but it doesn't take a scientist to realize he won't do that every night. The Wolves need to create more shots for the rest of the team, and focus primarily on perimeter shooting. I am not really a fan of Al, or anyone, taking 31 shots in a game.
Just wanted to wish everyone happy holidays; I'm in London, searching for clues as to the whereabouts of our missing Timberwolves team. Since we were told how much better they'd be, these can't be the real characters, correct?
Don't you worry, I am searching in all the taverns, and even threatening to attend a Euroleague game if possible. I will leave no cobblestone unturned in trying to bring back our boys.
BTW, it's kind of fun being American over here again. I can raise my hand and say I'm from the States without shame...as long as I'm not in the mortgage industry or a hedge fund manager.
Regarding Yao's defense:
It seemed to me that Yao was very ineffective when the Wolves took the ball directly to him. Granted that Jefferson is a very creative and efficient offensive machine, but even Smith was able to score on Yao when Yao was switched from Jefferson.
Yao was able to block a couple shots when he was playing help defense but his lack of mobility makes him much less intimidating than a more agile defender.
Al did a very good job of taking it right at Yao last night. Of course, the knock on Yao is still that he shies from contact, but taking it to 7'6" specimen is easier said than done.
The most disappointing thing about this team is our inability to weather a run - we've come out of halftime flat and uninspired too many times, and it costs us opportunities to win games in the end.
The Wolves' guard play will have to step it up while Miller sits. Foye and McCants have both been subpar this year, and I don't think surrounding Al with shooters is the answer (though I'll fully admit to thinking that was the answer going into the season). Al just doesn't find them - maybe this will come with time, but I've seen little evidence so far.
i wonder what you guys think the over/under is on the number of games Gophers basketball outdraws the Wolves.
Good to see the hustle out of Big Al, I enjoyed watching the Rockets game more than any other I've seen so far this year. He played like a leader this game, actually getting a little scrappy with Yao. If he can play that way against the rest of the league we may have a chance at getting to 12 wins and not being the worst team of all time. Also nice to see Foye actually getting to the hoop and converting. Miller being out may actually help if it gives Foye and McCants a chance to find some rhythm. If the Wolves can play every game like they played Sat. night the wins will come (not very many of them, but at least enough to keep us from being the worst of all time).
I also enjoyed the Rockets game. Although the Rockets are known for their defense I was not impressed by their defense on Foye. Maybe Randy's better than I think he is, but they didn't challenge him very much when he went to the basket. If Foye is challenged by a big he is not a very good finisher and his subpar at drawing contact.
I think the Rockets just thought the game was over. If Foye was either two inches taller or had two more inches on his vertical, this would be a different story. The dude just cannot explode to the basket.
Did anyone else read the Wages of Wins article about Love vs. Mayo? They say Love is better so far this year. An interesting read. (I found the link via Twolves blog).
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/12/21/kevin-mchale-and-blogger-power/
Hasheem Thabeet anyone?
I love the first heading..."Compete or Develop?".
Looks like the Wolves braintrust has selected answer c) neither.
I read the Wages of Wins article; it was good, and I tend to agree with the writer. This team isn't playing as well as past performance implied, they should still have a few more wins anyway, and Mayo is good but partially overrated because of his scoring. It surprised me how statistically overrated some of the players were, and that's part of what's questionable about that type of analysis. Gomes was the example that stuck out; he seems really valuable on the court, but the numbers don't bear that out. That leads me to think his impact is a little bit overrated.
This team reminds me too much of the Detroit Lions right now: had some chances to win, dumped their embattled personnel head (at least in that capacity), and are basically in a holding pattern until the end of the year, when we'll all find out who, if anyone, stays/goes.
I don't understand why some people continue to make the argument that Mayo is overrated because he scores a lot. He's shooting a higher percentage than Kobe this year guys and he's not a ball hog or defensive liability.
Jim,
I don't think the Wages of Win guys/gals set out to make the Mayo is overrated argument. They calculate the Win Score for all players and Mayo comes out looking average overall. As they note, that doesn't mean he won't improve and become above average.
Their stats certainly aren't the bottom line in basketball, but what they show is interesting. According to their stats, Mayo takes a lot of shots, makes a lot of shots, but otherwise looks about average.
It's my understanding that his defense is above average, and I don't think any of these stats (PER, WS) do a great job of capturing solid man-to-man defense.
I was also surprised to see Gomes perform so poorly in WS. This could indicate that the WS is not a great performance indicator, that Gomes is overrated, or that Gomes skills (evident when watching him) don't contribute very much on a team like the Wolves.
Interesting stuff, especially the Gomes part. By some accounts he could be an elite 8th man on a really good team, but on the Wovles he's just a role player whose skills don't help mask the absense of high end talent. On the other hand, maybe Gomes is just an average player who appeals to hard core fans because he plays hard and does several things pretty good, but not really well. Could it be that there's a lot of guys out there who are as good as Gomes? Or does Gomes possess the sort of intangible that make him worth while, even on a wretched team like the Wolves.
What I meant was that Mayo's value is inflated because he's a good scorer. The article says he's a good scorer but is below-average in categories that don't result in him creating a shot for himself (fewer rebounds, steals, and assists with more turnovers). The main argument it's making is that Mayo's not producing any more wins than Love is and that the reason the team is struggling is because almost everyone besides Jefferson, Love, and Miller are having worse years than expected.
As for Gomes, I think he's not highly rated statistically because he doesn't get a lot of steals, assists, or rebounds. I hate the term "glue guy," but that's probably the category in which he falls under. In that case, I'm curious how he stacks up with guys like Tony Allen, Trevor Ariza, and Anderson Varejao.
Just to add to that last post: "the reason the team is struggling is because almost everyone besides Jefferson, Love, and Miller are having worse years than expected and/or weren't that good to begin with."
Here is the complicated equation I developed to prove that Gomes' production may be directly related to his larger defensive role. The equation looks like this...
Twolves - Brewer + Mike Miller = More defense for Gomes = Less offense for Gomes.
I've sent this to ESPN. Sadly I've yet to get a response.
I have never really been impresed with Gomes. I sort of bought into the "glue guy" argument after the second half of last season. He started pretty poorly last year with the Wolves, but then had a decent second half. But, this year, Gomes has shown he is not an elite anything. He is barely a role player. He should be an end of the bench guy for most teams, but is starting for the Wolves. He is a great person and someone who is good for the community and probably a nice little addition to the roster. But, Gomes would not look better on a good team. He wouldn't be playing on a good team. Gomes does not do that many things very well. He doesn't do many things glaringly bad either. That is why he is playing in the NBA. But, any team forced to start Ryan Gomes is going to be a bottom feeder in the NBA.
I guess we do agree on some things APB. I really don't understand why so many people on this blog are constantly trying to prop up Gomes.
My guess is that a lot of it has to do with Britt's influence, as he has always been a vocal Gomes proponent.
But, yeah. Gomes would be a great 8th man. He plays within his abilities, puts forth a good effort, and rarely screws up. But that doesn't overcome the fact that he is too slow to guard a lot of 3's, too small to guard a lot of 4's, and lacks the athletic ability and skills to create for himself and teammates.
Sorry fellas, Gomes just isn't that good. The fact that he is getting this many minutes is either a testament to how truly terrible this roster is, or more front office face saving (attempted face saving) on the KG deal.
I think Yuck nails it here. Gomes is simply too slow to be a 3 and too small to be a 4. Gomes as a starter is a real indictment on the roster. If anything the past two years have disproven beyond a doubt that McHale's "basketball player" over position is flawed to the point where it leads to the worst record in the league. Sadly it's probable that a few years from now we'll be saying the same thing about Love as Gomes: Too small to be an upper level 4 or 5 and too slow to be a legit 3.
My memory tells me that Britt was pretty hard on Gomes at the beginning of last year. He gave Gomes his credit due for his improved performance over the second half of the season.
With everything that has gone wrong this year, Gomes noncontribution has just sort of been lost amongst many other concerns and I don't think Britt has made arguments in support of Gomes or ones criticizing him.
I'm glad we agree on something, but at risk of reopening our previous disagreement, I will just mention this point of emphasis. The Wolves poor results this year have much more to do with the non contribution of Ryan Gomes than the contributions of Al Jefferson. And I could go down the list-Foye, Miller, McCants, Ollie, Smith... All Wolves players not named Jefferson have either performed below expectations or are just not very good players to begin with.
Anybody who reads my posts knows who my favorite T-Wolf was. Sorry Bassy, but I'm just not that into you anymore. Read this:
http://knicksmecca.blogspot.com/2008/08/kevin-ollie-basketball-camp.html
Re-Above:
I found that gem on Canis Hoopus. Thanks S-n-P
Regarding the Gomes discussion.
I am generally a Gomes fan. He's the kind of player who is better on a good team, because more than anyone on this team, he knows how to play with others at both ends of the court. I think at his best, which we saw in long stretches during the second half of last year when the team was collectively playing well, he is a poor man's James Posey or Shane Battier; a guy who does what is necessary, doesn't stick out, but is a solid, reliable performer on both offense and defense.
This year, Gomes has been particularly valuable on the defensive end. All you guys casting aspersions on his play, do you not notice that this is a two-way game? Who do you think has taken the opponents' top scorer almost every night since Corey Brewer went down, and would be taking a majority of them even if Brewer was healthy? Did you see what LeBron did to Rodney Carney after Gomes went out with 4 fouls? Do you recall that it was likewise Gomes's 4th foul and subsequent benching that allowed Melo Anthony to go off for 33 in the third in Denver two weeks ago? To say that Gomes is a 'tweener who can't guard 3s or 4s kind of ignores the fact that he's often the most important defensive player on the court for Minnesota.
To repeat: Gomes is a very solid role player whose value increase with the caliber of his teammates, simply because he recognizes and calibrates his proper role in relation to what his team needs--a *very* underrated virtue that relieves tension in the locker room and fosters chemistry on the court. Furthermore, the guy is currently shooting an eFG% of .483, 4th best on the team behind Miller, Jefferson, and Smith, three players who couldn't carry Gomes's jockstrap on D. And he's getting paid a reasonable $8 m over the next two years.
If you're looking for what's wrong with the Wolves, Ryan Gomes is one of the last places to land.
Aww APB, trying to dredge up the Big Al battle again? I agree, it's one of the only things worth talking about. The rest of these guys have no trade value.
I am not going to take the bait, except to say that at 4-22, I don't know how you can Al is performing at or above expectations (or anyone else for that matter). If this is what $13M per year over the next five years buys, I am still a seller. For a little perspective, that is equal to the yearly salaries of Foye, McCants, Gomes, Smith, and Telfair COMBINED.
Let me amend that previous comment: "Did you see what LeBron did to Rashad McCants after Gomes went out at the start of the 4th quarter? Did you see what Melo did to Rodney Carney after Gomes sat down with his 4th foul in Denver?..."
Britt
Do you recall that it was likewise Gomes's 4th foul and subsequent benching that allowed Melo Anthony to go off for 33 in the third in Denver two weeks ago?
My recollection was that Melo's third quarter explosion was done as much on Gomes watch as it was on Carney or McCants.
Gomes has not been able to stop players when it matters. Players like Lebron, Kobe, Parker, Manu and Melo seem to sort of coast for three quarters and, especially at the beginning of the game and try and get everyone on their team involved. When the game is on the line they are usually unstoppable and a player like Gomes doesn't prevent them with much resistence.
I do understand where you are coming from and this reminds me of your steadfast support for Hassell that I never quite understood at the time either. I love a defensive stopper, and Hassell was much more of one than Gomes, but gets the assignment of the opposing teams best offensive player because once Brewer went down we have no other option. Gomes has not particulaly perform this role well, although I will admit the role is a pretty tough assignment on most nights.
APB,
My memory of the Nuggets game more closely correlates with Britt's. Gomes would out of the game early in the third quarter and Carney did most of the defensive work on Melo.
Although we'll never actually get to see the counterfactual, I highly doubt Melo goes off for 33 on Gomes. but, we'll never know.
Are there any stats that track players time on court alongside specific opponent players time on court? That would settle at least the recollection part of this argument.
It's difficult to evaluate a player's defensive performance using examples from one game (especially against elite scorers and playmakers). Melo and Lebron can be unstoppable performers even against the best defenses (see Boston vs. Cleveland, game 7, 2008 Eastern Conference Semifinals). Regardless, 33 points in one quarter is pretty sick and it just shouldn't happen as easily as it did. Is it a coincidence that most of the damage occurred with Gomes on the bench?
What we can go on is the effort we observe, the consistency of that effort, and his ability to adhere to what might think of as defensive principles like staying between your man and the basket, etc.
On those scores, Gomes rates relatively high on this team. I don't think anyone, especially Britt, is arguing that Gomes is an elite defender. I believe he uses the words solid and reliable.
I think your last paragraph is the key. Many teams have a great scorer at the three. Often a guy with great speed or strength (or both in LeBron's case), in short, a great athlete. It's not so much that Gomes always draws the team's best scorer, it's more that the team's best scorer often plays Gomes position.
For all his smarts and fundamentals, Gomes just doesn't have the foot speed to play with these guys for 40 min.
I certainly don't dislike Gomes. But I am baffled that people consider him a starter or even a big minute guy. I see Britt's point about him often being the best defensive option, but again, that is more of an indictment of the remaining personnel than anything else.
That doesn't mean he's not doing his best or causing this team to lose, it just means that his position is yet another that could use a major talent upgrade.
According to Popocorn stats, Gomes played the first 4:37 minutes of the thrid qtr against Denver and had a -7 +/- for that stint. Carney came in and played the next 3:26 minutes and had a -9 for his stint. Ollie then came in and played the rest of the qtr with the Wolves playing zone and guarding Melo with McCants. McCants +/- was a -2 for the remainder of the third qtr.
Melo's scoring was spread out pretty evenly for the entire qtr. I watched the game and he was on fire. No way Gomes makes much of a difference if he plays the whold qtr. Besides, he would have fouled out if he did.
Popcorn stats are helpful, especially regarding playing time. Thanks, APB.
Unless I'm missing something, and I'm often missing something, popcorn stats do not provide the within 3rd quarter distribution of Melo's points.
If I remember correctly, not only did Melo score 33 points, he scored a crazy number of consecutive points.
From the AP story: Anthony, who had nine points at halftime, took over the game in the third quarter, scoring 26 straight points for the Nuggets at one point.
I remember him ending the quarter on his 26 straight point run. If I'm roughly correct, then the other seven points in the 3rd quarter were scored early (by Jones and Billups).
bottom line: I don't think it's correct to say that Anthony's scoring was distributed evenly. I still think it was concentrated in the post Gomes portion of the period.
But we're probably discussing the difference between Melo scoring 28 points and 33 points here. And yes, Gomes would have definitely fouled out.
Quoting Britt, "the obvious: Any team that must rely upon Ollie and McCants to improve on the court has not been built properly."
When asked if choosing to keep Ollie on the roster instead of Blake Ahearn, Kevin McHale rolled his eyes and said "Hell, I don't know".
I'll dub that "odium from the podium".
Regarding the Gomes discussion, and the rehash of the 3rd Quarter of the Denver game, note that Popcorn's boxscore has a feature where you can click on a player's name and get his box score stats quarter by quarter. Melo shot 12-15 (4-5 3ptr), made 5-6 FTs and grabbed 5 rebounds.
The NBA, and a few other sites, provide a "play-by-play" record of the game:
http://www.nba.com/games/20081210/MINDEN/playbyplay.html
Melo was 2-3 against Gomes until Ryan's 4th foul at 7:23. Then Melo went 4-5 with 3-4 FTs vs Carney, who picked up 2 fouls in his 3.5 minute stint. After Carney's departure, Melo went 6-7 to finish the quarter.
In other NBA news...
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lakerfyi24-2008dec24,0,1149650.story
"The Phoenix Suns recently held an open workout for a backup point guard,
inviting six players, including Darrell Armstrong, Troy Hudson and Damon
Stoudamire."
Wow. Troy Hudson still living a dream.
I've seen Huddy at the gym a few times this year. If you didn't know pro hoops you'd never peg him for an ex NBA player. He's about 5'11 and 160 pounds. Never seems to be working out very hard, if at all.
I think the dream is over. He's a classic example of a guy who busted his ass to get in the league, then took it easy once he got paid.
At least he's finally off our books!
Nate,
I don't think you are missing anything. Popcorn stats do not give the point distribution of Melo throughout the qtr. The +/- give some indication and Gomes poor performance was indicative of the entire qtr.
Melo came out of the lockerroom with a different mindset than the first half. Gomes attempt to contain him ended up drawing 2 fouls and by the time Carney arrived he was heated up. My only point is that Gomes did nothing to contain Melo. Neither did anyone else on the Wolves. I think the popcorn stats don't prove this point but they certainly provide some evidence toward.
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