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On the Ball
The Three-Pointer: After A Green Spanking, A Motown Surprise
Game #11, Home Game #6: Minnesota 79, Boston 95
Game #12, Road Game #6: Minnesota 106, Detroit 80
Season record: 3-9
Photo copyright 2008 NBAE (Photo by Allen Einstein/NBAE via Getty Images)
1. "Shrinking The Package" Creates Confidence For Foye
If you had to pick just one reason for the lousy start of the 2008-09 season for the Minnesota Timberwolves, a curiously tentative and insecure Randy Foye at the point guard position gets the nod, against stiff competition (Wittman ineptitude, Shaddy agonistes, McHale redundance, etc.). Despite his transparent bravado, Foye is never going to be a classic point, the sort of natural floor general who can't help but get others involved in the offense. But during his season and a half of NBA experience before this year, the Wolves' plum from the 2006 draft (perpetually cursed by being swapped for the superior Brandon Roy) had demonstrated a desire to take the big shot, or otherwise trigger momentum. It was hard not to notice how substantially the Wolves improved once he came back from injury and readjusted to pro ball last winter, and reasonable to expect that with another off-season of prep work on point guard duties and the presence of Mike Miller to help spread the floor, he'd make another step forward this year.
Instead, the Foye we saw the first 11 games of the season was almost shockingly incapable of demonstrating, let alone inspiring, confidence. Malingering defense, clanked jumpers and silly mental errors that seemed to increase in late-game pressure situations--really inexplicable stuff like too many steps after picking up his dribble, or tossing the ball right to an opponent after unnecessarily leaving his feet--gave one the impression that Foye was buckling. His affected indifference to his travails, or poker-faced claims that nothing was amiss, made him, depending upon how intently you studied and interpreted his charade, either a bad liar or terrified into denial. About the only times Wolves fans weren't aggravated with Foye was when the team's best player (Al Jefferson) and head coach (Randy Wittman) were tactlessly taking him to the woodshed, in a manner that felt like cheap scapegoating. As if Jefferson, and especially Wittman, weren't vulnerable to one of their pecking-order superiors pulling out a drawer-full of grievances on their miscues.
Which is all a long ramp-up to saying that tonight (Sunday) was the best Foye has ever played in a Wolves uniform. His 14 assists topped his career high of 10, and could have reached at least 18--I counted four muffs on table-setting dishes, including the opening possession when he posted up Allen Iverson, drew the double team and set Jefferson up in perfect rhythm heading hoopward off his right hand on the opposite side. No matter: Within the first 2 and a half minutes, he had three assists, beginning with the kick-out and feed-back parlay with Jefferson on the block (aping Miller, for whom it seems to be a favorite play) for a dime, then a high pick-an-roll on the left wing that freed Jefferson for a jumper, then retrieving a loose ball and zipping a pass to Gomes for a trey from the corner. When he rubbed Iverson off a Jason Collins pick and buried his own trey, he'd had a hand in all the Wolves' points in a 9-4 lead and the Pistons were calling time out.
And so it went: 5 points and 4 assists in the first period, 4 and 4 in the second, 7 and 3 in the third, and 7 and 3 in the fourth. That's 23 points on just 12 shots (9-12 FG, 3-4 3ptFG, 2-2 FT), plus 14 assists, versus two turnovers that were cancelled by his two steals. It added up to a plus +25 evening in 37:17 minutes of confident, silky smooth action. How could this be the same guy who less than 48 hours earlier shot 2-12 FG, 0-3 3ptFG, 0-0 FT, with one assist and two turnovers in a bad loss to the Celts? Well, one explanation is that Boston's Rajon Rondo is perhaps the best defensive point guard in the league and Iverson is among the worst. Certainly Foye's size is much more of an advantage versus Iverson.
But there was something about Foye's body language and movement throughout the evening that was different than the guy who'd shot 34.6% all year and looked either pained or slack-jawed for much of his on-court reactions. Assistant coach Jerry Sichting let the cat out of the bag during his halftime interview with the TV crew. "We kind of shrunk our offensive packages," Sichting said, and, when pressed for more elaboration by Jim Petersen, added, "It just gives them less to think about and [let's them] just play: Just have a few options on just 4 or 5 simple basketball plays and just play out of that rather than running a lot of plays looking for one option. I think it is going to help our point guards as much as anybody."
Bingo. And that's when you realized how many pick and rolls and other fundamental playground stuff Minnesota was using. In a very literal sense, Randy Foye was playing out of his mind, letting his game reflexes and instincts do much of the heavy lifting. But good luck getting him to admit it. After the game, when Petersen talked about the shrunken package (sounds like the punch line of a dirty joke in high school) and what he specifically called "the whittled down playbook," further describing it as "keeping it simple," he asked Foye, "how did it help you?" And Foye sort of ducked it, agreeing that Wittman had said to keep it simple and then adding that Wittman said "We gonna run all the plays we usually run," but I think he meant that Wittman said they weren't going to run everything, because then Foye added that Witt, "Just let us play. And that's what we did; we executed the plays he wanted us to execute and we got the win."
That's pretty vague, of course, and indicates more planful behavior than the nifty improv we saw on the court. But as far as Wolves fans are concerned, Foye can describe it however he wants, so long as he keeps generating the results we saw on Sunday.
2. Ervin "Magic" Miller
Normally when you say a player does "all of the little things" it is a compliment. But Mike Miller was brought to Minnesota primary to do a big thing, which is put the ball in the basket. Miller's disinclination to shoot reached absurd proportions when he attempted just one shot in 8:27 of that wretched third period Friday versus the Celts, when the Wolves were outscored 35-10. The Wolves were 2-17 FG in that 12-minute stretch, with Foye and Gomes each attempting four shots, Jefferson and Telfair 3 apiece, and Miller joining Kevin Love and Jason Collins in attempting one. For the game, Miller was 1-4 FG in 31:24.
Let's step back for a moment and consider how silly this is. Miller is justifiably known as a deadeye marksman, with a better than 40% shooting accuracy behind the 3-point arc. Last season in Memphis, he shot better than 50% from the field and over 43% from long distance. This season, he once again is proving himself to be a shooter of uncommon accuracy, nailing more than 52% of his shots overall and better than 42% from behind the arc. And yet of the nine players on the Wolves roster who have logged at least 100 minutes of court time this season, *nobody* shoots less frequently, on a per-minute basis, than Mike Miller. Yes, not only go-to scorers like Jefferson and McCants and Foye, but glue guy Gomes, low-post 'tweeners Craig Smith and Kevin Love, and even notorious clankers like Bassy Telfair and Corey Brewer, all are willing to jack it up more frequently than the sharpshooting Miller. Instead, Miller is grabbing rebounds (third best on the team) and second on the team in assists--he's actually dropped more dimes than converted field goals, a ratio totally out of whack with his career pattern, not to mention logic. Because logic should tell you that if you're shooting a much higher percentage than the rest of your team, it doesn't help the ballclub to be assisting more than scoring. Heading into tonight's Detroit game, the Wolves were leading the NBA in assists and yet were next to last among the 30 teams in eFG% (which calculates the added value of converted three-pointers along with the standard FG%) and 19th in scoring.
Those who wish to defend Miller's unselfishness can point out that the Wolves are now 3-3 when his assists outpace his made FGs, and 0-6 when he converts more buckets than he drops dimes. Personally, I just want him to exercise better shot selection, which means going after his more aggressively. This is one of the few maladies that can't be blamed on Wittman, by the way. When I noted after the home win versus Philly that two of Miller's first three baskets were executed out of time outs, he slyly said he might have called plays for him but couldn't remember and didn't want to take the credit. After the debacle against the Celts, he said Miller has to "slow down and assert himself...I think slowing down he'll see some things, will help him see some things he's passing up."
3. Hit and Run
The rough opening month of Kevin Love's rookie career continues. Leon Powe lunched Foye a couple of times in the Boston game, and when Amir Johnson and Love entered the game simultaneously in the first quarter tonight, Johnson wasted no time posting him up for a bucket; later, Love twice got his shot swatted away under the hoop.
For the record, I think Love is going to be a good player. His passing and court awareness are top notch; his rebounding instincts are solid, and his footwork in the paint is polished. But he's undersized and he has no lift. (One of the few times GM Jim Stack ever opened his mouth was after the Wolves acquired Love on draft night and he stated that Love tested out to have great hops. Don't know if it was bad data or chicanery, but such apparent disinformation is especially damaging to the credibility of one who so rarely speaks.) I'd say he needs to run but a better way to say it is he needs to trigger a transition game, so he himself is not so fleet afoot, but he can grab caroms and zip the outlet pass. I'd also like to see Love develop a little more aggressiveness, sort of the bull-in-china-shop style that helped give The Rhino his nickname. Love was 3-10 FG against the Celts, and 0-2 FG versus Detroit. Remember all the talk about him being able to hit the NBA 3? Well, he's 1-9 from beyond the arc thus far. That said, it wouldn't hurt to run an actual play for him once in awhile; massage his ego and trigger his physical memory from college, or perhaps the first four games of the season. He could use a boost and the Wolves would be the long-term beneficiary.
With the stunning blowout win versus the Pistons still fresh in everyone's mind, Wittman's job should be safe enough to endure a little criticism. Of the 15 players on the roster, only two, Craig Smith and Kevin Ollie, are performing better than anyone's reasonable expectations. Wittman has neither shortened his bench nor given the kids reliable roles to play. He's playing for victories when development remains the priority--case in point was Corey Brewer, who blanketed Paul Pierce in two games last season (it was his chief claim to fame) and did a nice job for awhile on Friday, yet still only got 13:50 of burn. Meanwhile, Rodney Carney got 12:01. Kudos to Carney for the 3 steals, but isn't this just a Kirk Snyder redux? You know--is Carney part of this team's future? Carney and Brewer are very similar type players. One is your lotter pick--the one who should get the vast share, if not all, of those combined 25:51.
I don't need to tell anybody that Wittman is fighting an uphill battle against a horrible career winning percentage. When it actually declines, as has happened thus far this season, with a ballclub that the coach claims should be significantly improved over a year ago, then job security is the elephant in the room.
Finally, someone close to the Wolves pointed out after Friday's game that after going 6-2 in the preseason and squeaking out a victory in the season opener, Wittman was lambasting his team for not trusting each other after their second loss of the season. It's that easy reach for the whip, the Bobby Knight impulse, that is not helping the coach's cause right now. He's got a very young roster and most of his players are showing at best minimal improvement, and, just as often, general declines, in the caliber of their game. Foye and Love in particular seem too self-conscious about making mistakes.
Maybe this totally unexpected win over Detroit--a team, to be fair, that played horrendously and is still trying to find itself after dealing Billups for Iverson--will be the turning point in what has become a season shrouded in dread. Maybe the shrunken package is the first sign of Randy Wittman loosening the reins.
60 Reader Comments
Winning zombie ball. Let the players be who they are and act on their fairly obvious instincts. There is no sense in making these guys into something they're not. Not only is there no sense, but it won't work. Simple, up tempo, offensively-geared ball with a shortened rotation. In and out, high and low, pick and roll, pick and pop. That's it.
I'd still like to see them run a bit more and swap out Collins' pointless minutes with Love, but they are shortening the bench a little on the account of Shaddy being injured and it's working out fairly well. Maybe he'll take to the shortened list of responsibilities...although, I get the sense that he's a take-a-mile-when-you-get-an-inch kind of guy with Witt.
For me, the frustrating thing with this club is that you can see what they need to do from a mile away. Foye's not a real point so you limit his point duties to dumping it low and p-n-r/p-n-p. Jefferson's not a good interior passer so you enter the ball high and force as many doubles as possible from guys like Miller or Foye. You go uptempo and your defense consists of little more than making people go over the top by packing it in and keeping your butt between your man and the rim. This isn't rocket science. This is why I'm a big proponent of dribble drive motion; it teaches players to play ball instead of run plays. I'm not saying they should swap out offenses, but it wouldn't hurt to adopt some of the concepts...especially for guys like Foye, Bassy, Shaddy, and Miller. This should be the motto of this team from here on out: play ball, not run plays.
I think we saw a little bit of this last night. It will result in fewer free throws but ultimately, I think you make up for it in that it plays to the strengths/nature of the players on the squad.
I agree that letting the players "just play ball" will benefit players like Brewer, Foye, Telfair and Miller. I also noticed last night how often Miller would get the defensive board and just start taking it up court, instead of looking for Foye to dump it off to. Foye was working very well with both Telfair and Miller as his cohort at the gaurd spot out there and, whether he admits it or not, he benefits having someone out there with him to share ball handling duties with. It takes the pressure off of him and lets him use his advatages.
Coincidently, last night during the broadcast, there was a twenty-year highlight with Chauncey's best game ever as a Wolf, when he scored 24 in one qtr. That was just about the time Chauncey began to fulfill his promise of being a legit PG in the league, to the point that George Karl is now saying how nice it is to have a "Real" point guard after exchanging AI for Chauncey. Perhaps, in 3 or 4 years they will be saying the same thing about Foye. I'm still holding out hope.
I used to think the idea that the Wolves could be a running team with Jefferson was a bad idea. But, now that Jefferson has developed an effective 15' jumper, he can also get a lot of easy buckets trailing the play and setting up at the elbow.
But, the main point, win or lose, last nights untempo style without a lot of set plays is just plain fun to watch.
Three comments:
1) I thought the 9-4 beginning to the game was kind of lucky--we were playing bad and Detroit was playing much worse. Foye wasn't getting us into our offense very well--apparently the numbers contradict this, but I thought he picked up his game in the 2nd Quarter--it wasn't a coincidence that this was during his first stretch at the off-guard. Bassy played far from his best game, but he and Foye make our best possible backcourt. If Foye plays anywhere close to that level, everybody would forget about Brandon Roy. That was really impressive against one of the best teams in the league.
2) Miller tried to get his own shot a few times in the 1st Quarter, and it wasn't pretty. I'm not saying he shouldn't shoot more--maybe just that he should fire more 23-footers, and refrain from dribbling too much.
3) It's sad to hear Jim Pete say that Minnesota is not a particularly long team and not a particularly athletic team...usually you're at least one--if not both of those things--in the NBA.
I noticed the same comment from Petersen--he said it in passing, on his way to complimenting Jefferson as a force in the low post and in saying that the Wolves do have a lot of "smart" players. It particularly felt like a damning comment against Love, who is neither long nor athletic but plenty smart.
As for Miller, his first two shots were airballs, the first one blocked, but that was more shot selection than anything--he'd passed up more open looks before then. Almost all of his passing last night was kickouts to the wings or top off dribble penetration. Some of that is a good idea, but you'd think he'd do it to occasionally fake the drive and pull up and pop, which almost never happens.
Just as I don't like Jefferson and Love together on the front line for height reasons affecting defense, Foye and Bassy in the backcourt seems too short to defend properly. In fact what I noticed last night was that the biggest problem with the Billups-Iverson deal for Detroit is how small it makes them in the backcourt when they go Stuckey and Iverson; that's when Bassy-Foye florished. In the second period, when Foye had to guard Rip Hamilton, it wasn't pretty.
Saw only the second half of both games this weekend. The transformation between the games was unbelievable - a confused, reactionary, passive team to a confident, proactive, aggressive team. Someone quickly find out who the psychiatrist is and hire them for the rest of the season.
I'll throw something out - is not this the perfect time to trade the Rhino? His performance has been great, but he is still far to undersized to be a long term part of our undersized roster. We need to get bigger and I think maybe this just might be the time to do it when the Rhino's valuable maybe be at its highest. (Caveat - I think Rhino needs to be on the roster until mid Dec before he can be traded.)
How about Rhino to Chicago for Noah? I am not a good Trade Tracker guy, but I believe that both are ~$2.3M/yr.
Chicago get the inside scorer that they need while we get bigger with a very active defensive player who does not need the ball offensive.
Anyone else that would be a good Rhino trade fit? Or am I whistling in the wind?
Finally, am I the only one who hopes that McCants back injury keeps him out for a few weeks to force Wittman to keep the shorter bench? The flow was so much better against Detroit which I attribute in part to more playing time for fewer players.
I think Miller's situation is an interesting one. Shooters are usually one of two types: conscienceless jackers who have never met a shot they didn't like, and, blessedly, are good at making them (read Freddy Brown or Vinnie the microwave), or they are outlet shooters who have confidence in their game but don't look upon themselves as a first option (read Fred Hoiberg). Miller is of the second type. He consistently looks for a better option than his own distant jack. Since the Twolves are so dysfunctional offensively, he hesitates when he gets the ball, not believing that his shot is the best option that is going to present itself to the team. What I'm saying is that, despite being a shooter, he is still a team player. Until he realizes that the team is full of guys who think they can score when they can't, and that his shot is a better option than the craziness that will ensue if he passes on his shot and sends the ball somewhere else, his game will seem tentative, even hesitant. He needs to acknowledge that his shot, whether it goes in or not, pulls the defense out and opens up options for the rest of the team. We need him to be a shooter. Whether or not that issues forth in him being a scorer is, for the moment, secondary. Jack it up, Mike. If you don't, Shaddy or Bassy or KLove or Corey will. And they don't cause adjustments on the part of the other team. You do.
* I think part of the reason Miller isn't shooting much is that he isn't very good at getting his own shots. It isn't that he *won't* take more shots, it's that he *can't* get them without forcing things. Miller has never been a high volume shooter (isn't his career average about 9 shots per game?), and he's clearly uncomfortable looking to create more than one or two shots on his own per game. It should be up to Wittman to design plays where Miller will find openings (even though that might *complicate* things too much after we saw the joys of simplicity last night), but I don't see Miller becoming more of a gunner unless that happens.
*Kudos to Foye for showing what he can do. He must've felt great, if only for one night, to prove everyone wrong. Frankly, I didn't know he was capable of playing so well, and I hope he can build on last night's game.
*Love's confidence is in the gutter right now, and I think Britt's suggestion that he needs a play or two run for him would help a lot. On the rare occasion that he gets to post up, it isn't a given that he gets the ball. In the Boston game, Foye waved him out of the paint, and last night, Gomes refused to enter it to him even though he had great position. You can see how frustrated he looks when this happens. I was a Mayo guy on draft night and still am, but I'm not anti-Love, and I want to see him do well. It's frustrating that they're using him in a way that is destroying his confidence, because he doesn't have any athleticism to fall back on when his mind isn't right.
*I like that Bassy/Foye backcourt too. If Miller is a reluctant shooter, Foye is a machine gunner. Even though Foye dropped 14 dimes last night, I thought he *still* looked more confident in his minutes at the two, beside Bassy. I think most of us expect that Miller will be traded at some point, and if we're playing for the future, I'd like to see more of Bassy and Foye playing together to get a sense of whether they could be a competent NBA backcourt.
*I agree with SnP re: Collins. He is playing empty, unproductive minutes, and in a limited sample, I'll go out on a limb and say that our team just doesn't look good when he is on the floor. I'd like to see Love get some of those minutes.
Nice summary as usual, Britt.
I do take an opposing view on Miller. That being that Miller makes his high percentage of shots because of his selectivity. Also, Miller is the complete package (here we go again with package).
As for Foye, great game! Now, how will he perform going forward. Will he revert to former Foye or drop 10 dimes and 15 points a night with under 4 TOs. I'd be overjoyed for that.
Your K-Love advice is stellar. The kid brings some gifts and right now the game is messing with his head. At 20 he still has time in the off season to add some lift to his game, but I'm not convinced he should place a priority on it.
Getting his 3-point shot down would be immensely helpful to him and his team mates. The NBA 3 is a major adjustment both psychologically and physically. But if he can hit from that range with some consistency, it would cause serious damage to the defensive strategies of opposing teams. He would draw out defenders to cover him.
And out of the valley came a team that was fun to watch.
The up-tempo, looser game plan was a pleasure to watch. My favorite stretch was in the second when Witt went with the Young Guy Special - Foye, Bassy, Brew, Smitty and Love. They were zipping themselves and the ball around.
Since November 7, the Wolves are 2-6. Throw out the first four games (Bassy did not play in three and the fourth was the Double OT heartbreaker loss to the Spurs). In the Wolves six losses since 11/7, Foye, Miller and Telfair have combined for an average of 11.5 dimes per game. In the Wolves two wins in November, those three have averaged 23 assists per game between them.
They are also 2-1 when McCants is a non-factor (6 minutes vs Philly, injured the last two).
A.K. - I think the team looks more like, well, a team when McCants isn't playing. Obviously numerous factors have converged to have us playing better ball, but I hope we can find a way to get value for McCants (which isn't likely given that his contract expires after this year, not so?). He just doesn't fit into whatever it is the rest of the guys are trying to do, and I think he has deluded himself into believing that he can go somewhere else and be a star. Hopefully he can convince some rival GM of that so that we can get a piece for him.
Hey, great stuff from everybody. I've said it many times before, but few things are more heartening than checking in on your own blog to get a more nuanced education on the team you cover.
I understand the selectivity versus volume quandary with Miller, and just wish he tilted it more toward going for his--thus, I especially liked Dr. K's take, but think the other side has a legit argument. I'll take a few points off his eFG% in exchange for a few points on his ppg. And while I believe Miller is a relatively wise player, he's overdoing the dribble drives, which, at best, create shots for others by drawing double teams, which can be done more effectively by catching-and-shooting a few bombs on the wing. Floor spacing, rather than drive and kick, is Miller's best contibution to the offense.
Obviously Foye played really well. It'll be interesting to see if it carries over and we can consistently see good production from him.
A few years ago, Big Al was a very beleaguered player in Boston. The fans were nearly at the end of their rope with what they saw as a lazy defender and tentative scorer. Then all of the sudden, in a road game against NJ he just went off and hasn't looked back since.
Last season, I was hoping that Indiana game was going to signal a similar "breaking out" for a more consistent Bassy.
It was obviously not meant to be. In fact, I think Bassy's regressed a bit this year, over-dribbling and not taking as good care of the rock--the very types of things that got him run out of Portland and Boston.
And it's not the kind of over-dribbling a PG might do when collapsing a defense or getting it to shift so there is a better interior passing angle. Too often it seems Bassy is just pounding it as he looks for an opportunity to thread the needle or find a shot for himself.
SFJ--
I remember that Indiana game. The key was successful dribble-penetration, which opened up jumpers for others, which in turn bolstered enough confidence for him to make his own J's.
Astute criticism of his play thus far. I agree that he's looking for the impact pass at the expense of ball movement in general more often this season. I suspect it has to do with his backup status, both in terms of fewer minutes to get comfortable and more desire to create a splash in the fewer minutes he gets to display his game.
Oh man, Detroit. It must be strange to be a Pistons fan right now. Or Rip Hamilton or Tayshaun Prince. I made a mental note to write off the Pistons' season on Nov. 4th. I think it's clear that Joe Dumars has some plan for the future that doesn't involve the present. What an odd cast of characters he's got now, specifically Rasheed Wallace, Allen Iverson, and Kwame Brown.
Rasheed Wallace is in the last year of his contract and I don't think he wants to be a Piston anymore. He may rise up and be excellent in any given game based on a matchup that inspires him, or a message he wants to send, but I don't that think he's going to give 110% every night. Most of us will never quite understand what he's thinking, even if he tries to explain it.
Allen Iverson. I'd like to say `nuff said, but really, can the Pistons make it through the season (waiting for his massive contract to expire) without a total meltdown because of him? I doubt it. Bringing him to the Pistons makes Dumars supposed acumen a little suspect.
Kwame Brown. Oh my.
If the Wolves can find some enduring cohesion from this "blowout" victory, that's outstanding. But the Detroit team that showed up was not the Detroit team that beat the Lakers and the Cavs, teams that are much better than the Wolves.
To Just-A-Fan: You can always use www.realGM.com to explore trade possibilites. It's reasonably accurate, but not definitively so. It is also very easy to use. I'd actually suggest that any commenter on this blog take the minute or so to check a trade before making a suggestion.
In the case of Noah for Rhino, Craig cannot be traded until Dec. 15th. Even so, the salaries apparently aren't close enough according to RealGm.
Reuniting NCAA national champions Noah and Brewer on the floor together would possibly be an entertaining, perhaps even interesting, combination in the NBA. Two tall skinny guys flailing around the court seems kinda comedic to me, but it might work...
I've been mulling over Foye's excellent game at Detroit, and it raised the blessed possibility that maybe, just maybe, we will someday be able to stop seeing the shadow of Roy when we see the reality of Foye, and that we'll recognize that it is an issue of a good apple for a good orange. I surely hope so. But this raised a question that has been troubling me for awhile now.
Suppose KLove becomes the player we hope he can be and we move past the Mayo-Love comparison to the reality of the game. How, exactly, is Love -- the best Love possible -- supposed to fit into a team that has committed to Jefferson?
This is a dead serious question that I pose here, because good minds are at work on this blog. I can't see a way to get Love on the court with Jefferson if and when this team moves into the status of contender. For this team to be really good we need to put a larger center next to Jefferson and move him to PF, and then I see no place for Love. Am I missing something? Or are we looking at a rotation issue?
Frankly, I'm perplexed. Someone enlighten me and any others who are concerned with this issue.
Dr. K:
Assuming Foye can cement himself into the starting lineup as a combo guard with limited point duties (and he's good enough to be able to do so with something along the lines of 14-16 ppg, 5-6 apg and 43/40% shooting), and hoping for some luck in the draft with either a true point with size or a fellow combo that can share some lead guard duties with him, I think the Wolves can run out a very dynamic and exciting team that can compete at a very high level.
As for Love, he's 12 games into his 1st year and he's already playing solid team d, he has a nose for rebounding, he gets to the line, he can pass extremely well, and so on and so forth. He'll be fine and I really wish the team would just give him 25-30 minutes regardless of the outcome or his level of performance.
I know that small ball is frowned upon by quite a few fans but I just think they will have to remake the roster all over again if they choose to go the defensive center route with Big Al. There are too many other pieces on this team that are geared to up tempo small ball.
My dream scenario for this club is to end up with an athletic backup 4/5 and, short of Rubio, a fellow combo guard like Tyreke Evans, Stephen Curry, or Nick Calathes.
I think this will take some work on the part of the team to move away from completely committing to Jefferson. He's a very good player but I think he's limited in the sense of being a cornerstone. They should commit to small ball and round out their roster with guys that can fill in the gaps around what they already have:
1- Starting quality combo/point guard who can pair with Foye and share lead guard duties.
2- Athletic Noah/Jason Thompson (yes I like the Noah trade idea) 4/5 who can backup both Love and Jefferson.
Of course, they'll need to run a system that fits the personnel...which is another story altogether. They also need to hope and pray that Corey Brewer can develop a bit more on the offensive end. I'd be happy with a Travis Outlaw style of play at this point.
Defensively, they'll need to rely on zones more than other teams and get back in transition, but mediocrity is the goal on this side of the ball and they've been able to meet that goal so far this year.
Great question, Dr K, and it's the one that many of us asked on draft night. I think that, in a best case scenario, we add a star backcourt player (or just keep Randy Foye 2.0, or whatever it was we saw, last night) and add a center, and bring Love off the bench. There's nothing wrong with having an impact player come off the bench--but we'll need a bigger player to defend and grab more rebounds. There is probably no scenario that involves a Love-Jefferson 4-5 combo and a deep playoff run...unless LBJ decides that Minneapolis is more enticing than NYC.
Is there any explanation for why Mike Miller refuses to shoot? Is he pissed about the trade? Does he want out? He doesn't strike me as the type that is a scheming, selfish (or overly unselfish) kind of guy that is doing something like refusing to shoot because someone told him to shoot less. The guy is about as pure a shooter as there is and seems shy to pull the trigger. Is this an order from the coach? Is it a lack of confidence (which would seem odd since he is shooting well when he lets it fly)?
Dr. K:
I agree with most of what stop-n-pop and Andy G wrote: it is what it is, and while some of us wish we had gone in a different direction with the third pick, now we have Love and must make the best of it. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Love will be able to play the SF position. He's very slow and uncomfortable as a full-timer perimeter player, which is essentially what he has been so far this year. At times he looks good down low, which is why I think he should come off the bench, and why he should ALWAYS be in the game whenever Jefferson is getting a rest. While it's disappointing to say that the player we got as a top five pick likely won't start, he can still be effective in a well defined role. As everyone has noted, Love has some unique strengths - things he does very well - and our coach's job is to find a way to use those strengths to make our team better. Wittman is not accomplishing this right now, but maybe he will in the future (although if I were Wittman, I wouldn't be looking too far ahead...).
I also wouldn't rule out trading Jefferson if we could get the right package (!) in return. Although it would be a risky move given how bad Love has looked so far, it would allow Love to slide into his natural position and presumably give us help at another position of need. I doubt this would ever happen as long as McHale is making decisions (he'll forever be tied to AJ as the guy he snagged for KG, and Al is one of the only bright spots on the team right now), but it would solve the redundancy problem you mention and allow Love to thrive in an area where he has shown promise.
Eric B: My opinion is that Miller simply is not able to get his own shot whenever he wants because he lacks great athleticism (this isn't a knock on Mike - I like his game, but it's true that one weakness of his is athleticism), and he'd rather not force a lot of shots that don't have a good chance of going in. I don't think he's selfishly defending his shooting percentage, I just think he doesn't see the point of taking low percentage shots when others might have a chance of getting better ones.
Personally, I seem to be one of the only people who doesn't mind MM's secondary role. My position is that he isn't a first or second option on any team; he's a very good specialist who has a limited scoring repertoire. Just as it should be Wittman's responsibility to put Love in a position where he can succeed, he should do the same for Miller. If Miller can't get his own shots, design a few plays for him. He's money when he finds an open three.
AndyG, that's a great answer to Dr. K. IMHO, a 4-5 combo of Love-Jefferson is simply not a playoff-worthy lineup (sans, of course, LeBron James). That McHale seems to have that combo in mind shows me that he has lost touch with reality in the NBA.
If you see Love as being good enough to be a starting PF in this league, he'll need to be paired with a truly imposing center. May I refer you to Udonis Haslem?
I've said it before on this board, but my best of all possibles for Kevin Love is for him to lose the weight, and become the pale reincarnation of Larry Bird at the "3" -- assuming of course, that his reputed shooting ability actually materializes in the NBA. That would leave the "4" for Jefferson, and you could get by with a center who's a little less imposing than Shaq.
I think either Jefferson or Love will have to be moved depending on what each can bring back and where they fit into to team's style of play once it finds a successful formula.
The best approach is to develop Love's game at the 4, even if it means taking Smith's minutes for now. Perhaps next season or the season after, he'll show enough to be moved with Gomes and/or Brewer as a centerpiece the way Al was moved for KG.
I think Love has more long-term value as the focal point of a blockbuster trade than a 15-20 MPG backup, which is all he'd get if Al is the man.
As for Britt's comment on Bassy, I agree that he's forcing too much. He needs to be patient. Take care of the ball, play good defense and hit some open shots. Everything else will fall into place.
Over the next 2-3 seasons, there will be plenty of games where Foye goes cold, gets into foul trouble or isn't healthy. But if Bassy continues to force things because he thinks he has to "show something" and make mistakes he wasn't making last year, those extended minutes will go to Ollie.
Levi-
I have the same wish for Love--that he'd lay off the chocolate milk obsession and try to become a big, small forward. Others, like Shogun, don't see it as a possibility. Frankly, I'm a little skeptical that he could transform his body-type enough to pull it off, but there are plenty of tall, slow, small-forwards that get serious minutes in the NBA. If his already well-developed skill set keeps on expanding into his mid-twenties, he could be a really gifted player, much like Rasheed Wallace, with a little less size but a lot better attitude. I like Love as a prospect, but like you and others, it doesn't look good for the future of our front line, if they think that slowed down small-ball is the answer.
Guys the really issue is not that Love/Jefferson can't play together. They obviously can. The problem is that they can't play together for 30+ minutes a night because they are both undersized (Al at 5, Love at 4).
Love can, and I am betting will, transform his body over the next 2 seasons by rearranging/adding ~ 20 lbs of rock solid muscle. Coupled with his solid footwork and smart play, that will be more than enough to play 4.
What is disparately needed is a LONG, athletic 5. Someone to play the other 30+ minutes a night at 4/5 that Love/Al don't play. It is absolutely essential that we get this settled this year (with all our assets and draft choices.)
Heya,
After being an avid fan for 40 years, you have to take things as they are. Being realistic, there is only one "true" prospect on this team...Big Al.
McHale has failed beyond belief over the years, and KG's pick was lucky at best. (Even a blind squirrel can find a nut)
Love would need years of conditioning, transforming, and readjusting to be a "solid" 3, as a 4 he just cannot and will never compete. He just doesn't have the physical tools.
Any other thinking is pure fantasy, Bird came out of college with a skillset far superior to Love's, and being an "actual" 3-4 inches taller is something we cannot neglect to talk about.
While we all want to support the Wolves, any idea that we can compete at even a .500 level is utterly insane.
There is 1 piece in place for the future, any other position is filled with subpar players for this level of competition.
Until we get a "real" GM, we have no chance to draft or aquire the kind of serious talent needed.
My 2 cents.
Player 1:
Pts/36: 10.9
PPR: 0.7
rebR: 14.6
usgR: 14.9
PER: 14.8
eFG: 46.2
Player 2:
Pts/36: 12.6
PPR: -1.9
rebR: 14.9
usgR: 17.3
eFG: 36.6
Granted, it's very, very early in the season but the one big difference between Kevin Love and Al Horford is that Love needs to learn what shots he can get off in the NBA and what ones he needs to compensate for. Otherwise, you have a guy very much like last year's ROY runner up. It wasn't just the combine stats that were similar.
Say what you will about Big Al's ability to play the 5, but he's sure as hell a lot better of a center than Zaza Pachulia. He brings more to the table than Spencer Hawes or Brad Miller. There's not a center on OKC, Chicago, Charlotte, Philly, Dallas, Indy, Golden State (Biedrins is close), New Jersey, LAC, Detroit, Memphis, Miami, New York, or Utah that gets better production out of its starting center than does Minny. In terms of PER differential, the Wolves are the 7th best in the league at the position. You can take that with a grain of salt, but Big Al is dominating this year at the position. Love is 12 games into his rookie year at the 4. He's putting up decent numbers for a guy making some pretty big changes. If Love ends the year in the 16-18 PER range with his current rebR, toR, and gets his FG% up to a decent level, this team is more than fine with a Love/Jefferson duo at the 4/5. Will they always have defensive issues? Compared to some teams, yes. But there just aren't that many Andrew Bynums and Greg Odens out there. There's also not a lot of Al Jeffersons. This is about team play; net production on both ends of the court. You give in to the idea that they're going to be a 106-109 DE sort of team and hope for the best on the other end of the court.
Wasn't the Al Horford comparison based, in large part, on that 35-inch vertical that K-Love supposedly had before the draft? Does anyone think he's jumping that high?
I thought it was based more on his measurements but I guess the vert was in there too.
With all due respect to Love, who I think is a fine prospect (but as a 4), the only way I see the Love/Jefferson thing working long-term is to find that that elusive long, athletic shot-blocking defensive big to complete the rotation. In that case you can assure you have one above-average offensive big on the floor at all times, with the big guy covering their weaknesses for the majority of the game. Depth is good if it's talented depth.
However, the more likely scenario is that Mchale and co. don't see things that way and will soldier on with a slow, 6'9 front court. I wish I could give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they know more than we do or that there's some grand overarching scheme of which we're all unaware, but I just don't see the FO ever moving either of those guys, even if it's obvious (at least to everyone else, as things so frequently are with this team) that it isn't working. Oh well, such is the life of a Wolves fan.
On a positive note, maybe Foye turned the corner. He certainly looked more relaxed, like he was playing his game for once instead of doing his Chris Paul impersonation. If he keeps knocking down his outside shots while mixing in some decent decision making he might be a player yet. We're due some good luck as Wolves fans, aren't we?
Oh and if I may comment on the Love combine thing: if you watch him when he has a head of steam or gets time to gather himself he actually gets off the floor fairly well. He's certainly not "flat footed" or anything like that. While the 35" might be a bit iffy (maybe he short-armed his standing reach?), the issue is more that he's not very explosive. Keep in mind that how quickly you get that bulk off the floor vs. how high you can get with all the time in the world are two very different things, and the former is much more important to NBA success.
Normally it would be nice to compare Love to Horford, but I've read blog entries asking "What's Wrong with Al Horford?" (sorry, I can't remember which site). Apparently the Atlanta fans are worried because Horford looks so much worse this season than last (apart from that monster game he had about a week ago). Considering that Love's numbers are *still* inferior to Horford's, I'm not sure that the comparative evidence that was posted suggests any inference except the argument that some of us have been making: that Love has been a disappointment so far. I'm not saying this won't or can't change, I'm just saying that there are legitimate reasons to be disappointed in Love so far and that playing time isn't the main or only reason.
Anyway, maybe we could get him some Strength shoes and build up his vert for next year? The fans were so misled by the 35'' measurement that Love should be punished by having to actually develop a 35'' leap. :)
Xand makes a great point. He looks like a guy who squats a ton of weight and can probably lift pretty high with a full moment to gather and explode. What he can't do, is essentially what KG was always great at--just pop right up and snatch the high rebounds. KG is an unfair and extreme comparison, but he's just the opposite in terms of quick muscle fibers that "bounce" off the floor.
Horford and Love are very young players. Love is 12 games into his rookie season. He's a year removed from high school. This team is frustrating to be sure, but with a questionable coach and a lineup still rebounding from trading away the franchise...to say nothing of a system that doesn't seem to be geared towards its personnel...I think it's a bit early to say that Love is too fat and unathletic to be a player in this league.
I agree that the squad needs an athletic 4/5 to fill the minutes off the bench (and have said so for quite some time), but Love/Jefferson are your starting 4/5 of the future if this thing is going to work.
Heya "Anonymous" one...
I believe that Kevin Love measured out at 6'7.75", though according to NBA custom he is listed at 6'10" by the Timberwolves. Larry Bird was always listed at 6'9", but was actually 6'7".
I'll certainly agree with you that Love is not physically equipped to be a "4". Even bodybuilding lessons Gov. Schwarzenegger won't help his lack of vertical, giving up the 3-4 inches you referred to.
There's another issue on the Love/Jefferson comparison, though: they are not the same player though they seem to fit the same position. Big Al is troubling because he thinks that the play is over when he gets the ball. He is rapidly becoming the center/PF version of Allen Iverson -- "just give me the damn ball." The wager is that he can learn how to pass, not only out of double teams, but as part of the flow of a fluid offense. We must remember that he was, essentially, a high school kid who was probably so astonishingly advanced beyond his basketball peers that the nuances of the game were both unnecessary and irrelevant to him. Now he's trying to learn. Whether McHale is the right teacher remains to be seen. His game strength was not passing, but low post scoring. Jefferson already has this, and though it is necessary to cultivate your strengths, it is important also to correct your weaknesses. If this offense is to have any flow, Al needs to be more than a one tool player.
Love, on the other hand, is at least a three tool player (if we give his shooting the benefit of the doubt). Unfortunately, it seems that none of those tools is likely to lift him to the top of the NBA in any of those specific categories, with the possible exception of passing. Jefferson, with his one tool game, is at the top of the shooting category for low post players.
What does this mean? I'm not sure. I THINK it means that the two are not interchangeable and that there need to be two different offensive philosophies depending on which is on the floor. Let Jefferson be the shooter and "pass out of double teams" player, and let Love be a "part of the flow" player.
Here it is in simple terms: Run the offense TO Jefferson, but run the offense THROUGH Love. This, of course, is talking about half court sets. But, sadly, both are a bit slow footed, so with the exception of the idea of Big Al as a stop and pop trailer in the fast break, neither is well cut out for a full court up-tempo game.
I keep thinking back to the old Al Attles human wave offense where the game changed completely whether Clifford Ray or George Johnson was in. There may need to be two different TWolves teams if we keep both players and don't turn Love into a 3. This, then, lands on the coaches.
Just thinking out loud . . .
A final thought: maybe Bill Walton's game, not Kevin McHale's, is the appropriate model for KLove.
stop-n-pop's thinking that Love might be able to attain a PER of 16 or better would actually mean to me that Love had a great season for a rookie big man. 18 would amaze me. Kevin is currently at 13.7 right now (unfortunately, his opponents grade out at 19.0). For those who do not know, the PER number (invented by John Hollinger) is contrived such that 16.0 is "average".
http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN11.HTM#bypos
I snuck a peek at O.J.Mayo's PER stats (82games.com tracks this for each player) and they currently calculate him at 17.3, while his opponents are grading at 14.8.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08MEM4.HTM#bypos
For all of the complaining about Mike Miller, he's doing OK on this stat. Slightly better than average, slightly better than his opponent. Good enough for me, considering that this team is not helping him out very much.
Not to nitpick on the point of an excellent poster, but the "average" PER is actually set at 15. If Love grades out anywhere in that area I'd consider it a great year for the kid. Combine that with the relatively unmeasurable things he's already contributing like smart team D and his ability to make the right play at the right time (minus getting lunched under the hoop) and you'd already have yourself an excellent young big. Consider that he's only 20 and it only gets better.
Still, that 3rd big must be found if you want to roll with those two as main cogs in a competitive lineup. Balance their scoring and rebounding prowess with some length and athleticism and all the sudden the outlook is quite a bit brighter than it is now.
And a last point to Dr. K - great post but I would add that I've already noticed Al doing a substantially better job at both noticing where the double's coming from and hitting the cutter when the D rotates. Last year he'd routinely miss the passes we'd taken for granted when KG was here, but I've noticed him make beautiful reads on numerous occasions thus far this year, which I'd bet translates to his assist numbers.
He's definitely got a ways to go, as passing isn't second nature for him like it was for KG, but the fact that he's showing improvement already bodes well for his future. Little things like year to year improvement go a long way toward dismissing the comparisons to Zach Randolph, who peaked quickly and never overcome his bad habits.
One blowout win over a lousy Pistons team doesn't change the fact that Wittman is literally out of his league. The Wolves need to fire him and hire Avery Johnson. Right now they are basically being coached by the crew that used to take over on the rare occasions when Flip would get tossed.
Xand is correct (and I don't mind corrective "nitpicking") the average PER is intended to be 15.0.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=...
I forgot to add this when the Love/Bird thing came up before, but here's a little nugget from the last time it came up:
http://www.canishoopus.com/2008/6/25/558576/the-return-of-stop-n-popra
"There's a gift in knowing how to play," McHale said. "It makes you faster. It makes you quicker. It makes you a step ahead. I played with a guy who you'd say, 'He's a step slow, he's this, he's that.' His name was Larry Bird. He wasn't too bad. There are guys who just know how to play. Magic Johnson wasn't a world-class athlete. He was just unbelievably smart. Those guys always do well."
...it's part of the interview where "small area quickness" was born.
As long as we're making Al Horford comparisons, can I remind everyone that when Horford was Love's age, he was still Florida's starting center and he hadn't won a championship yet.
Kevin Love is going to be just fine, and considering what some other clubs are rolling out there, Wolves fans should be happy to pair Jefferson and Love together as the starting front court of the future. This Love doubting seems to be spurred by that most recent double rejection he got while under the basket in the Piston game. In spite of that one occurrence, Love has been very efficient under the rim. He has a knack for getting his shot off, or at least getting fouled, and he's an excellent free throw shooter for a big guy. I also think that Love's defensive presence and defensive potential is severely understated. Remember how good he was vs. Tim Duncan? He may not be able to jump high, but he sure can play good man to man defense on the low post, and he's great at boxing out. Hell, half of Craig Smith's defensive rebounds come when Kevin Love boxes out both guys, and Smith just sprints and picks up the ball before it goes out of bounds.
Please be Patient!
Your "Kool-Aid Of The Day":
- Jerry Zagoda, Star Tribune
- "...Al Jefferson's monstrous games in the paint against the Suns last season might have convinced them they needed to acquire [Shaquille] O`Neal..."
Brought to you by:
The Sid Hartman School Of Journalistic Integrity.
Britt:
You were singled out as a dirty blogger yesterday by Witt:
http://www.canishoopus.com/2008/11/26/673426/game-day-former-speed-frea
Congrats and enjoy your cheetos. ;)
I think Phoenix took a little more into account than Jefferson's monstrous games in acquiring Shaq. But let's not be too quick to put Z in the same category as his elder colleague at the Strib. Jefferson certainly did have some monstrous games against Phoenix last year as provided further down by Z.
Numbers: Jefferson led the Wolves in scoring in all four games against Phoenix, averaging 30.5 points and 15.2 rebounds. Included was a 39-point, 15-rebound game in a 117-107 victory at Target Center last January.
You can't argue with those numbers and Shaq was rested (didn't play) last night against OKC to prevent, presumably, Big Al from having another huge night against them. He'll be playing tonight.
Wittman's comment when Britt's name came up:
"Who?"
Nice retort, stop-n-pop, noting that the combined readership of bloggers exceeds the number of people who watched the Wolves on TV during the end of the season last year. Randy -- the joke's on you.
And APB -- just throwing a little humor out there. I thought about opining that Sid must have originated that comment and the editor was bullied, bribed or blackmailed into grafting it into Zagoda's piece.
Indeed, Jefferson put up a lot of points, etc., against the Suns. Heck, I even reviewed the popcorn "gameflows" before I posted to see if there was some explanation due to missing personnel or something. But anyone with a sense of perspective would assume that Phoenix is far more concerned with a) the teams in their division, particularly the Lakers and b) the Midwest Division, i.e. San Antonio and Houston. The road to the Finals goes through those teams, while the Wolves are mere Bots Dot lane markers.
It was interesting to hear the rebounding comment about Collins. Over at Hoopus, jianfu pointed out that Witt's assertion may not be backed up by the stats. With Love on the court, the Wolves have a greater on/off rebound differential:
Collins:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08MIN14.HTM#onoff
Love:
I looked over those stats stop-n-pop mentions. It looks to me that Collins and Love actually have about the same *overall* on-court team rebounding rate, though Love's lineups garner the advantage in offensive boards. The on/off differences are now at about 2-3% -- not much to hang any kind of theory on with such a small sample size.
The notion that any team would make personnel decisions based off of a game against the TWolves is beyond laughable.
Stoudamire's piss poor defense aside, I am pretty sure that dealing for Shaq had a lot more to do with getting rid of Marion and easing the internal strife. With a secondary goal of freeing up future cap space once the Big Cactus retires.
And speaking of Jefferson's supposed domination of the Suns, he was still a -7, despite the big numbers. And PHX's big men had their way with us offensively, shooting well over 50%.
Sorry to piss in the Kool-Aid.
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4842191
trade with cavs for cap space and a tradable prospect who could be kept and developed, depending on the other moves we make. thoughts?
sorry, meant to mention a pick coming from the cavs, too, but the machine doesn't allow you to note this.
I'm not sure that trading away Mike Miller would do wonders for our newly acquired chemistry. Also, with the way they're playing the Cavs pick is likely to be pretty low.
Well, as long as McHale is here there's no way we are trading away Miller. Especially now that Mayo is regularly throwing up 25+ pt games. That would be an admission that we got fleeced, yet again...heresy in these parts.
Keep it up KMac. You could field two championship teams with the players you've traded and past on.
We'll just sit here and sip on the kool-aid while we discuss the big win over Oklahoma City. And our newly acquired chemistry that allows us to win an occasional game over the other crappy teams in league.
Re Trading Miller/Collins/Cardinal/Madsen for Wally/Eric Snow/J.J.Hickson
I can't think of a single reason that the Cavalier Front Office wouldn't be rolling on the floor, laughing, at this trade proposal. And the reasons for this don't even involve the players that would come from the Wolves.
First, Wally's biggest contribution to the Cavs will be his contract that expires, just as the Cavs need cap space to resign LeBron. Besides, the only thing bringing Wally back to the Wolves would do is extend the slow, undersized, weak defense lineup of Jefferson/Love out to the SF position.
- Second, the Cavs will probably be cashing in on Snow's insurance, to wit:
- The Cavaliers are waiting to hear from the league on a disability claim on guard Eric Snow. Snow is retiring and will not play this season (or again) because of chronic problems with his left knee stemming from an injury last year. If the claim is accepted, the team could save more than $10 million when combining insurance coverage and luxury tax savings.
Third, if rookie Hickson turns out to be any good at all, they'll need him to help round out the team at a price they can afford after paying LeBron (and maybe a 2nd high $$ free agent).
So...I'm just wondering if you happen have a warehouse full of Wolves #10 jerseys that was printed up the day before the Wolves traded Wally. In my opinion, for either basketball or business reasons, the farther Wally is kept from the Wolves roster, the better off the team will be.
point taken on snow; didn't know that and would restructure my proposal accordingly.
but if you looked at the contracts, the cap space the cavs need to resign lebron would still be available, which works against your first critique of the trade. why do they need cap space now? if they can add a premier shooter to the roster, why wouldn't they? they get mike miller, who along with michael redd is probably one of the prime targets for the shooter-hungry cavs and represents a significant upgrade at guard. they take on a few manageable contracts with high-character guys, and they give up a low draft pick playing less than five minutes a game. year after year, mike miller is one of THE guys contenders try to pry away, and the cavs are desperate to make things happen NOW, for obvious reasons.
furthermore, if you think the cavs are going to sit on wally's contract and let it expire rather than trading it for a useable piece, you might be the one the front office types would be laughing at. and unless you want to have a 32-yr-old shooting guard with limited athletic abilities to start with on our roster when we begin to contend, i suggest you drop the sarcasm a bit and realize that miller allows us to undo damage from bad contracts and will not be in his present form when we actually need him to contend. i suggested the trade as a cap-clearer, not as a trade that gives us useful pieces. i think wally is terrible, just like you do. but the structure of our roster is terrible, and we are many, many moves away from contention. turning OJ mayo into Kevin Love, Hickson and a cheap pick (both could be packaged in what I assume will be a move up rather than down this year), and the departure of Walker, Jaric, and Buckner's contracts?
that's good roster management, with our without your hypothetical wally jerseys.
Heezy, we agree on a couple of things.
First, Mike Miller is a fine player who might fit into the Cavaliers current championship run. Second, that Wally is terrible.
Actually, Wally seems to be making some decent contributions in Cleveland. Some apparent maturation on his part and the luck of playing with LeBron may make me eat my prediction of a few years ago that Wally will never be a major contributor on a championship contending team.
Heezy,
I've got to agree with Levi on this one. I think you are seriously overestimating Mike Miller's worth. You want the Cavs to give up two valuable expiring contracts plus two cheap prospects for an athletically limited shooter and three bad contracts?
NOBODY wants Mike Miller this bad. I think the best we can hope for is one expiring contract, one prospect,and one pick. Throwing the crud (Madsen, Collins, Cardinal) in seriously dilutes the deal.
Again, though, the Wolves seem hell bent on selling Mike Miller as one of our building blocks. Maybe this is one for the new GM (fingers crossed).
Wittman's job should be safe enough to endure a little criticism, don't you think so?
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