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Livan's Last Start For Awhile? And The Rockets Get Artest

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Those of you who claim to have known the Twins would be playing for first place on the next-to-last night in July, please stop lying.

Other commitments prevented me from going down to the Dome for Slowey's shutout on Monday and the marvelous manufacture of five runs in the fifth en route to a 6-5 win on Tuesday. But tonight was the Twins' opportunity to move ahead of the Pale Hose, and for veteran hurler Livan Hernandez to quiet the horde hollaring for him to be replaced in the rotation by Francisco Liriano. I've got some sentiment on behalf of Hernandez. First of all, through the first six weeks of the season, he went 6-1 with a 3.90 ERA, enabling pitching coach Rick Anderson to sort through his youngsters with a little more patience knowing that he had a veteran stopper on the mound to prevent things from going too far off track. That by itself made Hernandez a better investment than Sidney Ponson and Russ Ortiz combined the previous season. Second, although Hernandez has been increasingly hit harder, he's been eating a lot of innings--he's got 143 and 2/3, with Nick Blackburn's 127 next-most and the rest of the starters not yet at 100. That means if the Twins stay in the pennant race and need to tax their young arms, they may be able to do so (with the possible exception of Blackburn) without worrying about blowing them out. Glen Perkins has never pitched more than 132 innings in a season at any level and Blackburn's career high is 160. Baker has gone 190 and between Rochester and Minnesota last year, Slowey reached 200. With 55 games left to play for the five-man rotation and hopes that they'd average at least six innings per start, that's an extra 66 innings apiece (if they each start 11 times). Baker and Slowey can handle it, Perkins, maybe. But without Livan's 144 (minus 1/3), a bunch of pitchers in their mid-20s get pushed, and the odds of arm injuries rise.

Hernandez gets by on guile, not a bad role model for a bunch of hurlers without mediocre stuff (with the exception of Perkins). I know I enjoyed watching him befuddle the young Diamondbacks when I went to the Dome late last month. Plus, on a more personal level, as a blogger on the back side of middle age, I've got some empathy for an aging guy trying to wheedle his way along in a young man's game. And a part of me resents picking up my latest Sports Illustrated and reading:

Whether because of an egregious error in evaluating Livan Hernandez or decisions of a financial nature, the Twins have continued to start Hernandez (a 5.31 ERA and fewer than a strikeout every two innings, despite his 10-7 record through Sunday) even as Liriano (10 straight victories) destroys Triple A hitters in the International League. According to Baseball Prospectus's projections, replacing Hernandez with Liriano would save the Twins 15 to 20 runs down the stretch, making them two games better in a division race that may well be decided by less than that.

Well then, there you go: Put a bullet into Livan and ship him off to the glue factory and you might win a pennant. Because the bean counters figure 15 to 20 runs, which by their pythagoreardon berenguergringo formula comes out to two games.

Yeah, I personally resent it, but I also get the Baseball Prospectus yearbook every spring and have come to admire their scholarship, not least because they are often accurate. I was hoping to catch them badly underestimating one of the Twins pitchers who have come through for the club this season, but their thumbnail sketches of Slowey, Baker, Perkins and Blackburn are all pretty solid.

More to the point, Hernandez got shellacked tonight: 5 runs, 9 hits and 2 walks in 4 innings' work. The Dome has been his saving grace (he was 8-1 at home before tonight) and he's generally been able to battle back from a wretched inning to put together a little mow-through-the-order rhythm. But not tonight. Carlos Quentin crushed a pitch for a line drive homer to left center in the first inning, then cleared the bases with a three-run double (again to left center) in the 4th, prompting manager Ron Gardenhire to say "he was missing [with his pitches] but mostly to one guy."

Except that seven of the other eight guys in the White Sox lineup also got hits off Livan in those 4 innings, and none of them were cheap. He pitched out of a couple of jams to hold it to just 5 runs, and his ERA--at 3.90 in May, remember--is now 5.48, and his 6-1 record has slipped to 10-8. Despite the fact that I think Liriano remains an extreme injury risk (unless they have done wonders with his mechanics down on the farm) and should be traded now, while his perceived value is still pretty high, it is hard not to endorse the notion that he should be brought up and thrown into the rotation if he's not going to be dealt, and that Hernandez should slide into the roles of long relief and informal pitching coach.

Most of the time after a game, I listen to what Gardy has to say and then split. But tonight, I thought it would be instructive to get Hernandez's reaction to getting shelled at a particularly delicate moment regarding his near-future role on the squad. I waited patiently while the cluster of beat writers asked him all sorts of questions, all the while ignoring the elephant in the room. They asked him about Quentin. They noted that he seemed to get upset with some of the ump's calls and wanted to know if that were true. They asked if the size of the crowd--over 42,000, the largest non-opening day crowd since the final day of the 2006 season--affected his performance. Hernandez was unyielding, saying he made a couple of bad pitches to Quentin, that he doesn't get nervous, that he wasn't frustrated, etc.

Here was a guy who everybody knows is going to get yanked from the rotation sooner rather than later unless things change, soon and dramatically, in his favor. He just crapped out and reporters were asking if it was because of the size of the crowd! So I stepped in it. "You've heard all the talk about Liriano I'm sure. Did that have any effect on you mentally as you pitched tonight?" I asked. He looked daggers into my eyes, his mouth somewhere between a sneer and a smirk, said something to the effect of, "Okay, that's enough," and turned his back on the throng. Interview over.

Now Hernandez doesn't know me from Adam, so I get his pique at some new guy jumping his case. The question would have been better coming from someone else (and perhaps then would have been more elegantly worded). But the question had to come from somebody. And by turning his back on us, Hernandez answered it.

People who call Ron Artest crazy aren't exactly lacking for anecdotal evidence. My favorite Artest moment was less than three weeks into the 2004-05 season, when he told his team that he wanted to take some time off to promote his new music record. Yeah, that sounds like a plan. Of course less than a week after that, he went up into the stands and started wailing on a guy who he (mistakenly) thought threw ice at him (it was another guy, of course), precipitating the largest, ugliest, fans-players brawl in NBA history. The domestic abuse and animal neglect charges, and the destroying of a television camera, etc, etc, are also on the books. But I give him a pass for getting into a confrontation with Pat Riley, one of the few times when I understood exactly what he was thinking.

When he wants to be and the planets are alligned, Artest is also an incredible basketball player, especially on defense, where his stuck-on-overrevved motor can change the dynamic of a game. He epitomizes the phrase, "high risk, high reward." And now that the Houston Rockets have acquired him, I can't imagine a better place for him. Houston is the armpit of America--hot, humid, oily, and unattractive, a huge city that alternately feel like a ceaseless warehouse district and a suburb on steroids. It's a place without much of an identity--compare it to Dallas, Austin, San Antonio--but craving a winner. Having come from the political cowtown of Sacramento, Artest will enjoy the upgrade in visibility and scale. More than that, he'll love the chance to play for a winner (and the Rockets will win if Artest doesn't flip out), and for coach Rick Adelman. According to a story today by the Houston Chronicle's fine beat writer, Jonathan Feigen, Artest florished in the 40 games he played under Adelman after being traded from Indiana to Sacramento, where Adelman coached before Houston. Artest was named to the All NBA first defensive team, and offered to donate his salary to the Kings if they kept Adelman (they didn't). The fact that Ron Artest is happy with his coach is a great first building block, if such a thing is possible in the ever-changing world Artest inhabits. One of the reasons the Kings were willing to let him go for an apparent song--Feigen is reporting the compensation is Bobby Jackson, promising rookie forward Donte Green, next year's top draft pick and another player yet to be named--is because he had begun berating himself for not opting out of his $7.4 million contract in Sacramento. Kings management wisely gauged that as rumblings from potentially damaging volcano, and peddled him forthwith.

People have already started to wonder if Artest and shutdown forward Shane Battier are redundant talents. But if you like defense, that is akin to somebody wondering if an art collector's Monet is now redundant because the collector just purchased a Renoir. No, while Battier and Artest are similar, and have overlapping strengths, the defense they can play together will only seem redundant to the opponents they are smothering.

Of greater concern is how well Artest will mix with center Yao Ming. The men are polar opposites in terms of temperament. Yao is deferential, overrated on defense, and slow. Artest is egotistical and ball-hungry, overrated on offense and very quick. If they are both Rockets, I think they will move in different orbits. As a longtime Yao hater, I see all the ways Yao's game could get under Artest's skin, even as Yao is being accorded his usual global veneration, upping the resentment ante. And we won't even go into all the ways Artest could be the problem.

I am falling prey to the trite temptation to make trades for other ballclubs. I believe it is a trade that would make both participants at least co-favorites to win their respective conferences. It won't happen for a boatload of reasons I won't go into now (like the commercial power of Yao's nationality), but it would be of enormous benefit to both teams: Send Yao, the expiring contract of Steve Francis, and a sign-and-trade deal with Dikembe Mutombo to make the sides match, all to Philadelphia in exchange for center Samuel Dalembert and a sign-and-trade contract for Andre Iguodala.

Philly would have Yao to pair with Elton Brand on the front line, with Mutombo as a backup and Andre Miller still running the point, with emerging scorers like Thaddeus Young in the mix. That is a team that could make some serious noise in the East. Meanwhile, Houston would have a front line of Dalembert, Artest and Battier, with Luis Scola and Carl Landry if you needed to get bigger at the 4, and a backcourt of Iguodala and T-Mac swinging with Rafer Alston at the point. And that is a team that would sit beside the Hornets and the Lakers as monster conference contenders.

Even if they stand pat, Houston is suddenly very much in the championship conversation. No team in basketball has quality muckers the likes of Artest, Battier, Scola, Landry and Chuck Hayes--that's sweat equity by the gallon, and doesn't even include your two superstars. And looking at San Antonio and Dallas right now, they'll own Texas.

24 Reader Comments

Captain America (not verified)05:56am
Jul 31
There is no downside to the Attest trade. The Rockets have many components but could really use a tuned in Artest. If Coach Adelman can get the chemistry right (I think he can), the Rockets will go deeper in the playoffs. Britt, you're right, Hernandez has a history of saving pitching staffs by eating innings. Unfortunately, the division knows his tactics too well now. Even foul balls were smoked last night. His game last night brought back bad memories of Sidney Ponson last year pitching "batting practice" to the Red Sox shortly before getting bounced. Personally, I think Boof is the odd-man out with Hernandez winning the St. Jude Medal for pitching innings during lost causes.
Stop-n-Pop (not verified)08:17pm
Jul 31
Let me be the first to disagree that there is anything good about this trade. First of all, Ron-Ron is already ratcheting up the crazy: http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/1122561.html "The small forward is exchanging words with his new teammates even before setting foot in his new locker room. One day after the Kings and Rockets agreed in principle on a trade that would send Artest to Houston and bring Bobby Jackson, Donte Greene and a first-round pick Sacramento's way, Artest went on the defensive by phone to The Bee in response to comments made by Yao Ming. It was a most inauspicious start to this union, one that is no more than a handshake deal at the moment. ... "I understand what Yao said, but I'm still ghetto," said Artest, who will earn $7.4 million next season and be a free agent next summer. "That's not going to change. I'm never going to change my culture. Yao has played with a lot of black players, but I don't think he's ever played with a black player that really represents his culture as much as I represent my culture. Once Yao Ming gets to know me, he'll understand what I'm about. "If you go back to the brawl, that's a culture issue right there. Somebody was disrespecting me, so he's got to understand where I'm coming from. People that know me know that Ron Artest never changed." ...I'm sure Ron-Ron knows a whole lot about Yao's background and Chinese culture. I'm sure a society that has lasted thousands of years has no way of handling disrespect. I'm also sure that a country with poverty on a level unimagined in Queens (do they have torture centers in the City?) doesn't produce a type of frame of reference that Yao can recognize. Ron-Ron is crazy. He keeps getting chances and he keeps blowing them. This. Will. Not. Work. Yao is on another level both in terms of talent (I'm a Artest hater) and promotional stature and if the class/race/social based resentment is already pouring out in the press, it ain't going to hold together for a full season of hard practices and things getting literally lost in translation between the two gentlemen. The dumbest part of this trade is that the Rockets' chances have nothing to do with having Shane Battier pt. ii. If Yao or McGrady go down, they could have a team full of Shane Battier/Ron-Rons and they'll go all of 6 games against whomever. With Yao likely having a rousingly busy off-season with the Olympics in his backyard, I doubt he's fully healed and I don't expect him to be healthy for a full season next year. McGrady is McGrady. He'll get 60 something games and there will be a breakdown here or there along the way. Meanwhile, they give away a young 3 point bomber and a backcourt vet. Ron-Ron is Ricky Davis on the defensive side of the ball. I will never understand how he continues to get chances. I will never understand where his apologists continue to come from. Houston, get ready for disappointment.
Stop-n-Pop (not verified)09:05pm
Jul 31
ps: in the next 24 hours, there will be a story about how he has "made right " with yao. this will likely be the result of the FO or pr department of the rockets getting in touch with him and telling him that he needs to at least get the talking points right during his 1st week with the club. what's really interesting about ron-ron is that he's only 28 and he's in the last year of a rather modest contract for the impact that a lot of people think he has on the court.
Britt Robson05:09pm
Aug 1
How can you say that Artest has slipped that much as a defender? Please recall who his teammates were in Sacto, then tell me which of the other four is a quality defender. Last season, he got 20 points, 6 boards, 3 and a half assists and a 2.3 steals per game while defending the other team's best swingman. The Rockets got him for a first round pick that will be in the 20s, Donte Green and somebody else. I get that you think Artest is crazy and that he was the one primarily at fault for the brawl. I don't think anyone disagrees with you. But this Houston team has proven it can win 55 games without him, and without Yao for half the season. In other words, with Artest going into the final year of his contract, they are the ideal team to take him on. I like the Manny comparison. And the Red Sox won two rings with Manny.
stop-n-pop (not verified)06:57pm
Aug 1
I admit I may be a willing victim of hyperbole here, but here's what I'm basing my Artest take on: Artest had 2 fantastic years with Indy: 02/03 and 03/04. He was a fantastic all-around player who had a solid steal rate, didn't turn the ball over a lot, carried a spectacular DRtg (98 and 96 pts per 100 possessions) with huge defensive win shares (11.7 and 16.7 repsectively). Indy had the 3rd and 5th best defense in the league (100.8 and 97.2) and he had much better surrounding talent than he did as Sacramento. Since then, he's missed (by injury or suspension) a total of 138 games while seeing his performance yo-yo between ORtgs of 99 and 108 and DRtgs of 103 and 108. While his exellent defensive performance with the Pacers had a lot to do with the surrounding talent (O'Neal, Jeff Foster, and Al Harrington were his biggest surrounding talent), it also had a lot to do with the style of play that Indy had: Rick Carlisle ball with a modest pace and an overall ORtg of 104 and 103.8. Last year the Rockets had a team that played at a Pacer-esque pace with a more efficient offensive output. Sacramento had a higher pace with only a marginal better ORtg than Houston (108.9 vs 108.2). Their defense was much worse. Artest was able to outpace his team's DRtg by about 3 pts/100 possessions. OK, this is getting kind of muddled. Cutting to the chase, Artest had a fairly nice year as a team player last year. He had an adj +/- that put him in the top 45 players in the league. His +4.84 was 3 spots ahead of Shane Battier's 4.61. His on court DRtg was 107.32. When he was off the court, the Kings DRtg went up to 111.76. He had an even bigger effect on the offensive end of the ball. Plugging him into the Rockets lineup, I think my take on him has more to do with him being able to provide a significant leap at any position than it does about his individual play. He's at his best in a slog-em-out defensive style of ball. He's quite literally a brawler on the court. Houston was able to win 55 games because of their fantastic team play. Frontcourt guys like Chuck Hayes, Shane Battier, and Carl Landry all had fantastic years where they provided the Rockets with outstanding adj +/- on the floor. Landry made his living on the offensive end, Hayes went nuts on the defensive end, and Battier was a jack of all trades. In terms of being a replacement player over what they currently have, where is his value going to come from? Offense or defense? With his track record in the last 2 years, it likely will come at the offensive end. He's been able to maintain his offensive win share totals as well as lower his turnovers while his defensive win shares and DRtg has fallen since moving out of Carlisle's system. Even last year in Sacramento he had a bigger effect on the offensive end, boasting a nearly +5 advantage of on/off ORtg compared to mid 3s on the defensive end. His defensive rep was made with Indy. He had fantastic defensive numbers on that squad, but so did O'Neal (93 DRtg), Foster (96 DRtg), Harrington (98 DRtg), and so on and so forth. Carlisle had a fantastic defensive system and it played well for all of his players. He should be one of the Rockets' better defenders next year. However, in terms of replacement value, his value may come at the other end of the court and it will not be as big as the headache that he has the potential to bring. I admit to some hyperbole here; it's not so much that he's slipped as it is that his value to the Rockets likely won't be as significant on the defensive end of the court as it is on the offensive end.
stop-n-pop (not verified)07:16pm
Aug 1
Wow, reading that again it seems pretty disjointed. Here's an analogy to let you know where I'm coming from. A good basketball team is a collection of mixed ingredients. Think of it like a tasty mixed drink. Let's call it a Wolves Long Island Iced Tea. You have your main ingredients: vodka (Big Al), tequila (Foye), rum (Love), and so on and so forth. While there may be better ingredients out there, you can't just pour them into the glass without messing up the flavor or overflowing the glass. The Rockets damn near filled their glass to the brim last year. They had a huge win streak, they won 55 games, and they did so with an injury to their most important player. Now that they're mixing their 2008 version, they're adding an ingredient that will take either take away from the existing mix or provide too much of a good thing and cause the thing to spill all over the table. Aside from the head-case factor, he is a very nice basketball player. However, he's like an upgrade from Jim Beam to Makers Mark. Yes, he may be a better individual player, but he's a similar style player to what they already have (and who already plays quite effectively...Mr. Battier, to say nothing of Landry and Hayes) and his addition begs the question of : Does the increase in individual quality of a third-ranked ingredient provide a significant improvement in the overall tastiness of the final product? In terms of replacement value, and with the real ingredients already involved, his value will a) probably not be as great as one would think adding a 20/5 kind of a guy to a roster would be, and b) more on the offensive end than on defense. That being said, if there is an area where he could fit in and provide a significant improvement, it is Luis Scola.
secretarykissinger (not verified)09:04pm
Aug 2
Suddenly, I feel a thirst coming on...
midlife crisis (not verified)07:35am
Aug 1
Wow, you are an Artest hater. The difference between Artest and Ricky Davis is that Ricky Davis could make teams better and Artest actually does. Compare him more to Manny than to Ricky Davis to be appropriate. Artest brings a winning game to the court (we've all seen him play, that's not realistically part of an argument) but his "Artest never changed" moronic off court behavior and alpha-alpha dog mentality gets to be too much. I like Shane Battier, but Artest is much better. If Artest can hold it together for a year (contract year, after all), Houston will have made a solid trade, and all they're really looking for is getting past the first round. If Artest had 4 years left on the deal, I would agree with you. For one year though, I think everyone will coexist for a few more wins. Nice call on Artest and Yao making up. Apparently a completely repressive society and the chaos of urban american poverty (the ghetto) can be solved with a 15 minute phone call. If there was any truth to that, Addleman should be secretary of state rather than coach.
stop-n-pop (not verified)08:34am
Aug 1
I am a big Artest hater. The brawl was an unforgivable offense. As for his on-court performance, he had 3 outstanding years with Indy. Since then, his win shares have went down while his loss shares have skyrocketed. He's also no longer the elite defender he was in Indy. If anything, he'll help the Rockets more on offense than defense. He definitely has a more rounded offensive game than Artest. However, Battier is one of those "little things" guys that carries a lowish PER while having out-of-this-world efficiency rates and win shares. It will be interesting to see how the team plays with both of them. Who is he providing an upgrade for? http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2007-2008&team=HOU He may be a better individual player than a lot of those guys, but as far as team play goes, the Rockets ran off a ton of games in a row last year because their guys fit better than any other guys in the league.
stop-n-pop (not verified)08:41am
Aug 1
PS: I still don't get Artest's explanation for the brawl. He went into the stands because he's poor and black? Is that what he's saying? Even if he's not directly saying that, it's a pretty short logical leap from what he appears to be saying to that position. I'm reminded of that Dave Chapelle skit about when "Keeping it Real" goes wrong. No matter where you come from, there are some pretty obvious lines of decency that are not crossed. Jumping into the stands is one of them. I can't believe how big of a clown this guy is and that anyone would take the whole "I did it because I'm ghetto" explanation seriously. No, you did it because you're stupid.
midlife crisis (not verified)01:11pm
Aug 1
I should qualify that I agree that he's an a-hole, dangerous, and it took selling your soul to take this guy on your team. However, I can also understand that if selling your sould is ok, that this player can improve your team. He plays better on contending teams and played incredibly well for Adleman (who would have been available for us, as a complete aside). In the trading of nothing for a cancer, I would rank it between the Manny signing and the Wild Chris Simon trade. I would say it moves Battier into the James Posey Sixth Man Memorial role and that would improve the team... but only if Artest holds it together. I also agree that the risk is much higher than the possible reward. To make it the trifecta of agreement, how the heck does "it's a culture issue" apply to the brawl? I beat down the wrong guy, but I'm not apologizing because that's my culture?!? He's like the Mike Tyson of basketball. (but unlike Mike, he's got a little more in the tank so the side show hits Houston, where he could help them through the first round, or more likely, head them to early rebuilding).
Stop-n-Pop (not verified)05:16pm
Aug 1
It really is a stupid comment on so many levels....especially when you consider that he said it in response to a guy who comes from the most populous country on the planet; a place where there is no shortage of cultures and culture clashes that may produce the sort of I-saw-it-in-Scarface code of respect that Artest seems to be referencing.
Andy G (not verified)07:17pm
Aug 1
All the focus on Artest's reply, rather than the original, even-stupider comment by Yao that sparked the whole thing. If Yao wants to rip on his new teammate about an event that happened years ago, that's one thing. (Although I don't see the good sense in immediately harming a relationship with a new and important teammate.) But, he also threw teammate Luis Scola under the bus with him, citing text messages between themselves regarding their concerns about Artest joining the roster. I'm sure Scola was happy to have the confidential messages relayed to Ron-Ron and the rest of the world.
stop-n-pop (not verified)07:50pm
Aug 1
Here's the original article: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/5916722.html Yao's comments were a bit more tempered (and not as stupid--if at all) as you make them sound: "Yao Ming and Luis Scola spent Wednesday morning furiously exchanging test messages and opinions after word of the deal broke out of Houston. "For some reason, I like (Artest)," Yao said. "Because in the games we play against him, I hate him. "When I text messaged with Luis, we talked about team chemistry. That's only what worries us. "We worry about the new attitude to the team. We are adding talent to the team and we need that, but building team chemistry is important. This is not bad. I don't mean he is not welcome to Houston. But a new player always needs some time. "Also, he was the biggest part of a team in Sacramento. He was a star player. We need more chemistry and more communication." ... "He's a good player. Why should I not be excited?" said Scola. "He brings defense. He brings talent. He brings athleticism. That's a lot." Artest also brings plenty of personal baggage with him, his foray into the stands that touched off a riot at the Palace of Auburn Hills, Mich., being the lowlight of a turbulent-but-productive career. "There's worry. Obviously, yes," said Yao. "We will think about it, of course. Hopefully, he's not fighting anymore and going after a guy in the stands. "I haven't talked to Ron yet, so it's hard to say. I have to find a way to talk to him and see what we can do as a basketball team. He has a history. But we know he is a physical player. He is a good player. He really can help us. And Ron is on a contract year, too. "I think Ron Artest is a good player if coach (Rick) Adelman can control the team well." ... Yao thinks the Rockets, to use a poker analogy, are all-in for next season. "I think it's kind of a gamble," he said. "Because we're getting rid of rookies this year and next year and we're getting an experienced player. That's a team that needs to win right now, not in the future. "I think this team has no problem being a good team in the regular season. How good can we be depends on how we show up in the playoffs. It's very clear. The playoffs, we already know, are a different game. It's playing fundamentally. That's how Utah gets success two years in a row against us. I think, for some reason, Ron is that kind of person. He plays very fundamentally. Body up, physical, defensively, offensively." ....I don't think those comments even approach the level of being stupid. I think it sounds like Yao knows his team. To quote Jay Z, Yao isn't a business man, he's a *business* man. He's an international superstar that has a limited number of miles in the tank. There's too much on his plate in terms of wins, dollars, yuan, and whatever to worry about some joker going into the stands. Players like Yao and Lebron are simply on another level in terms of stature and their business doesn't need some of the things that Ron-Ron brings to the table. Artest responded like a crazy man to Yao's comments and it doesn't even look like he read the whole article. None of it makes sense...especially the culture stuff. Doesn't Yao play with Skip to My Lou?
Andy G (not verified)11:25am
Aug 2
They were condescending and a little bit insulting, even if somewhat justified. The reason I think they were stupid is because Ron is a new teammate and any type of concerns about him should be handled internally. By making condescending remarks about Ron relating to the Palace Brawl, he was clearly going to spark a public reply from Artest. Artest was defensive moreso about the incident itself than anything personal about Yao. I'm not going to read too much into his comments, other than by calling it a cultural issue, he's probably just referring to the way he perceives getting hit with a beer by a rich, drunk guy, and some players from Artest's "ghetto" background would take extra exception to that type of insult and actually fight back. The obvious problem that Ron ignored is that he didn't know who actually threw the beer. But I don't think that mistake of fact had anything to do with Yao's remarks, or Ron's reply.
Stop-n-Pop (not verified)12:47pm
Aug 2
Being ghetto has nothing to do with not wanting to get disrespected by someone throwing a beer on you. My dairy farming, overall-to-church-wearing in laws from Wewoka, Oklahoma aren't just going to take that sort of thing if it happened, say, in a bar. However, when you're getting paid millions of dollars to perform in front of thousands of fans, and you're in the middle of a performance, I like to think that it's something of a kumbaya teaching moment that both the ghetto-raised baller and the hillbilly farmer can both realize what lines are not to be crossed. In no way, shape, or form were those comments condescending...especially when they were made in regards to someone with Artest's specific background. It's not a cultural issue; it's a matter of stupidity and anger management--a set of qualities that have been mixed together in a peculiar way, and that belong to a single crazy owner, not an entire ghetto. Say what you will about Yao's comments, but they were the only comments in this entire tiff that were accurate.
Andy G (not verified)01:36pm
Aug 2
A fan sitting in a $250 seat tossing a full beer on a young man from the ghetto might have cultural issues tied to it. Perhaps Ron might have a different perspective than you or I that doesn't necessarily make him stupid. And not to go too far in defending Ron's poor decision to enter the stands, but his blood was obviously boiling after the chuck to the throat from Ben Wallace and with the crowd undoubtedly screaming everything in the book at him from the stands. It wasn't an easy time for him, or anybody else in his position, to turn the other cheek. Ron could have just as easily said something like, "You know, Yao brings a lot to the table, and if we can get him to stay healthy or play any defense, this could potentially work out. There's obviously worries with Yao, since he's such a soft player, but I'm confident that Coach Adelman can make it work." Those would be just as accurate as anything Yao said, and just as condescending coming from one veteran teammate about another. Yao should take a page from the Patriots book on how to properly handle a talented, but controversial newcomer. They didn't say anything about Moss, other than that they are only judging him based on what he does in New England. An 18-1 record with 23 Moss TD's showed that to be a successful approach. http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3510085&n8pe6c=1&categoryId=2459788 - it looks like Ron has taken the high road with a little bit of time for reflection. I'm sure they can make it work.
Andy G (not verified)01:38pm
Aug 2
I'm not sure if that link worked--it was supposed to be with his PTI interview with Mike Wilbon.
Stop-n-Pop (not verified)02:37pm
Aug 2
That doesn't make sense. You still haven't acknowledged the gap between perception and action. Sure, Ron could see a rich white guy with a beer and think thoughts about class and race, but even if we grant him that, he acted--and I highly doubt that in the heat of the moment the first thing that went through his head was some drivel from Socioeconomics 101. That's the type of shit you pile on *after* you know you've crossed the line. As for the stuff about Yao taking lessons from cheaters, I won't even touch that one :) I think we are just going to keep restating our disagreement here. I'd like to see it work out for Yao and McGrady. I'd like to see what they could do with a healthy squad in the playoffs. Here's hoping for the best and that they can live happily ever after.
Andy G (not verified)03:52pm
Aug 2
I don't think he was thinking rationally about anything when it happpened, but perhaps his background was at least one factor in his natural instinct to fight back in that situation. Who knows. My original problem was just that Yao brought it up, and that that particular decision was as worthy of criticism as the reply by Ron. And I'm not a Pats fan, but I just thought they did as good of a job as possible when dealing with this type of situation. Dallas is trying the same thing with "Adam" Jones and they too have said only nice things about him publicly, while they (probably) hold their breath and hope that he stays out of the club scene and gun fights.
Andy G (not verified)06:28am
Jul 31
With Artest, I think Houston is right with LA as the co-favorite in the West. T-Mac is the perfect kind of player to carry a team of bruisers on his back--sort of like how Allen Iverson did with that Philly team that went to the Finals. However, Adelman is a great offensive coach and this team might be (almost) equally impressive on offense as they are on defense. All character issues aside (and that is a mighty rap-sheet) Artest was a great get, and I wish LA could have flipped Odom for him. The biggest thing that Houston will worry about now is staying healthy, something they have not been able to do in the past. The path to the finals is certainly not being made easy for the young hopefuls like Utah, Portland and New Orleans. Maybe by the time LA and Houston slip from contention, Minnesota will be ready to make a post-season run.
anton (not verified)12:03pm
Jul 31
Stop me if you've heard this one a few times in the past couple of years: the other AL Central powers keep getting better - time for the Twins to re-tool. No, wait, sorry - replace "other AL Central powers" with "Rockets" and replace "Twins" with "Western Conference". I hope you'll forgive me, but I've heard the same song and dance about each a few too many times. Yes, the Rockets make strides every year, beginning with the acquisitions of the underrated Sura and overrated McGrady in 2005, on to the Head/Alston/Swift step-back of 2006, Battier and Bonzi in 2007, then Scola and Landry last year. The Rockets just got much better, and of course Yao will be back in good shape after the Olympics (though I think the Sports Guy would call him a prime candidate for the Ewing Theory). But really - your 3 best players all play the same position (SF). I like this trade mostly because it creates matchup problems for other teams, which I think is one of the most interesting aspects of pro hoops. As a Pacers fan, I'll note that Artest was a very crucial piece on an overachieving 60-win Pacers squad in 2004, so as T-Mac would say "impossible is nothing". The Twins thing baffles me each year, and for the most part I've just learned to tune out Twins media references. By those same "pythagoreardon berenguergringo" projections, losing Johan and Torii was supposed to set us back about 60 wins, putting us into Montreal Expos territory. Instead, we were all SHOCKED to learn that our farm system had actually produced some quality arms and bats (get well soon Alexi!). I'm clearly missing something, and I'm sure I'll look like a fool when this Twins actually do fall off some season (I'm arbitrarily predicting 2025), but I just can't believe it until I see it with my own eyes. Thanks for the great write-up though!
Levi (not verified)09:45am
Aug 2
Article re Randy Foye at home in NJ: http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080712/SPORTS04/80712064/1002/SPORTS
anton (not verified)10:35pm
Aug 6
As long as this thread is done, I thought I'd point you all towards a good Team USA / Darfur discussion on my other favorite sports blog, Free Darko. I've always been a fan of Bethlehem's writing, but like this blog, the comments really shine... Part 1: http://freedarko.blogspot.com/2008/08/well-always-have-smoke.html Part 2: http://freedarko.blogspot.com/2008/08/it-was-so-familiar-then.html

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